and still nothing for the peons....

[swamt]

 
Pretty sure the poster was referring to past TWU negotiated contracts.  In other words, no observers allowed, and no real time updates with the TWU.  Got it now?

He was and most got that except for 2 individuals that are die hard industrial union supporters.
 

IMO, AMFA is on the right track, but doesn't go far enough.

Picture the company negotiators walking in to a standing room only crowd quietly waiting for the show to start. What a great message that would send!

It works very well indeed Kev.  It also seems to stop the childish games that our company use to play out while nego with the teamsters as the company now knows that whatever dog and pony show they decide to put on will be on the floor in an instance.  
Anyone expecting a contract anytime soon is sadly mistaken.  We won't even have one this year and this is the way the company wants it in order to please the investors first.  I would actually be shocked if we have anything to vote on by Jan 1, 2016.  With the way the company is delaying and delaying setting only one meet date in 3 months is just proof of what they are doing on purpose.  This Aug will be 3 years since amendable date, maybe after this date the company will start to get serious about settling a contract like they claim they want to do but we all know it's just smoke and mirrors.
  On a side note, for you guys rather it's the TWU alone, this association, or a new union that comes in to represent you guys when it's time to get to the table, I also predict that the company will stall out with you guys as well to come to JCBA, as they know it will be costing them some coin to move forward.  Not one time during this 9 month waiting period did the company express their concern of the delays from the NMB.  But yet when ever the NMB has taken their time upon investigations or decisions that AA really wants they would fire off letters and expressions for the NMB to either hurry up or just complain that the NMB is taking way too long.  Not once did they express any concern what-so-ever in this 9 month long (the longest in history) delay from the NMB to call for a single carrier.  So you guys should prepare for even longer delays as the company will want to put off the JCBA just as they have been doing thus far...

 

[WeAAsles]

"Anyone expecting a contract anytime soon is sadly mistaken.  We won't even have one this year and this is the way the company wants it in order to please the investors first.  I would actually be shocked if we have anything to vote on by Jan 1, 2016.  With the way the company is delaying and delaying setting only one meet date in 3 months is just proof of what they are doing on purpose.  This Aug will be 3 years since amendable date, maybe after this date the company will start to get serious about settling a contract like they claim they want to do but we all know it's just smoke and mirrors."

Wow swamt I'm so sorry to read this. I don't get it? I thought AMFA was supposed to be the solution to all the problems that mechanics faced in the industry?

None of this makes any sense? Why is this happening to you guys?

I hope SWA management is not gearing up to try and pull another NWA maneuver on you guys? I don't think they could file for BK but heck if they can prove to the Fed that they have your replacements ready to go the NMB could skew you and release you to strike someday?

You guys better be careful and watch out for that play. I wouldn't put anything past management when you're such a tiny group with almost no backing.

Wouldn't want to see another bloodbath in our industry after that massacre at NWA. That was brutal man.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The AMFA - NWA situation was a one-off, its not likely to happen again most especially at SWA.

 

[WeAAsles]

The AMFA - NWA situation was a one-off, its not likely to happen again most especially at SWA.

A one off? Losing a whole freakin airline? I mean c'mon now. Let;s not live in fantasyland ok. All I'm trying to do is make sure these guys keep their eyes and ears open.

In life you need to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. The template is already there man. Let's not be naive that SWA management doesn't have that book and won't use it if they feel so inclined?

Yea let's live in a World full of rainbows on that one.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

A one off? Losing a whole freakin airline? I mean c'mon now. Let;s not live in fantasyland ok. All I'm trying to do is make sure these guys keep their eyes and ears open.

In life you need to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. The template is already there man. Let's not be naive that SWA management doesn't have that book and won't use it if they feel so inclined?

Yea let's live in a World full of rainbows on that one.

 
You haven't the first clue
 
You use NWA as nothing more than an AMFA bash with apparently NO knowledge of anything else that happened then. If you did perhaps you'd understand why it won't happen again and just how foolish you sound.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
You haven't the first clue
 
You use NWA as nothing more than an AMFA bash with apparently NO knowledge of anything else that happened then. If you did perhaps you'd understand why it won't happen again and just how foolish you sound.

 
He seems to forget that nobody works for NWA anymore, even those who bent over backwards to save it. 
 
They all got screwed and concessions didn't change that. To me these constant references are not merely an AMFA bash, its a way of justifying lying down and letting the company walk all over you lest "you don't want to end up like them AMFA guys".  Pay your dues but don't expect anything other than "Just Cause". They aren't just saying that AMFA needs to be rejected, they are saying that resistance to concessions must be rejected.  If it were just an AMFA bash then they would follow that with examples where due to Union solidarity when workers fought back, they won. 
 
Criticizing AMFA's shortcomings is fair debate, but  the NWA debate is really one of being pro-concession or anti-concession,  thats a debate that usually occurs between the employer and a Union, not between two unions. When a Union takes the position of being pro-concessions they have taken the position of the employer.
 
For a guy who is always complaining about others not putting out the whole story to keep citing NWA as an example of epic failure and extreme miscalculation he ignores most of the facts of the case such as the terms they were offered required that they agree to eliminate more than half the jobs right off the bat. My guess is that the average NWA mechanic today is earning more than he would have had he agreed to the terms offered and I also believe that the Average NWA mechanic did better than the average FSC or Flight Attendant at NWA, even the ones that made it to Delta. What really sickening is that no matter what union it is, no matter what differences the Unions have between each other Unions should never be allied with management in going after another Union. These people seem to take pleasure in citing what happened at NWA, ignoring the fact that even those who gave concessions eventually lost their jobs and most also lost their Union even if they were fortunate(?) enough to be kept by Delta when Delta bought NWA. Fighting between Unions should never get to the point where a Union will build an alliance with the employer. 
 
I prefer to cite the EAL struggle, where the Unions stood together. In totality Labor won that battle, at a high cost for EAL workers but Labor did win. Every other worker in the Industry benefitted from the sacrifice made by the EAL workers when they decided to kill the company before allowing it to knock their wages down. It took 9-11 and people like Jim Little to bring the industry where Lorenzo was trying to go and beyond, but Labor did win back in 1989. Wages stabilized as EAL workers were absorbed by other carriers. They brought their militant fight back culture with them. Unfortunately our compensation now, thanks to the Jim Littles and other weak, pro company Union leaders,  in real terms makes what Lorenzo sought look generous. 

 

[Bob Owens]

A one off? Losing a whole freakin airline? I mean c'mon now. Let;s not live in fantasyland ok. 

 

Like Pan Am? How many rounds of concessions did Bakala give Pan Am before they finally shut down?  What part of "this is a volatile industry" do you not get? Fantasyland? Maybe you are the Pollyanna if you believe that concessions will guarantee your employment and seniority at a single carrier your whole life. You may think it worked for you, but look around at all the places where workers gave concession after concession and the carrier disappeared anyway. All that type of thinking does is put us in a race to the bottom. AMFA didn't lose "a whole freakin airline", anymore than the TWU "lost" Pan Am, or the IAM Lost EAL, they never had one to lose, neither do you, you are an hourly worker, you don't own AA. You need to focus on making as much money as you can while its there because determination of how long it will exist has nothing to do with you. No matter how many concessions you agree to you will never have the power to keep the entity going, you have no say in that. 
 
This type of association that airline workers have with their employer is the single most destructive mindset plaguing Airline workers. Airline workers dont go around saying "I'm an ALPA pilot" they say which carrier they work for. Their employer becomes part of their identity. I blame the Unions in part for this. For many years I've said that the Airline labor movement must consolidate, not form BS Associations  that make things worse but true consolidation. (Associations make things worse because these associations are the result of industry consolidation, consolidation brings more efficient use of resources, so we have a less efficient Union structure dealing with an even more efficient corporate structure. Our Association is inherently weak and if anything we need a more monolithic structure to take on the NEW AA like the Pilots and Flight attendants have. ) 
 
Has it escaped everyones attention that the two Associations on the property, CWA/IBT and TWU/IAM are the only ones that did not get the 4%?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
He seems to forget that nobody works for NWA anymore, even those who bent over backwards to save it. 
 
They all got screwed and concessions didn't change that. To me these constant references are not merely an AMFA bash, its a way of justifying lying down and letting the company walk all over you lest "you don't want to end up like them AMFA guys".  Pay your dues but don't expect anything other than "Just Cause". They aren't just saying that AMFA needs to be rejected, they are saying that resistance to concessions must be rejected.  If it were just an AMFA bash then they would follow that with examples where due to Union solidarity when workers fought back, they won. 
 
Criticizing AMFA's shortcomings is fair debate, but  the NWA debate is really one of being pro-concession or anti-concession,  thats a debate that usually occurs between the employer and a Union, not between two unions. When a Union takes the position of being pro-concessions they have taken the position of the employer.
 
For a guy who is always complaining about others not putting out the whole story to keep citing NWA as an example of epic failure and extreme miscalculation he ignores most of the facts of the case such as the terms they were offered required that they agree to eliminate more than half the jobs right off the bat. My guess is that the average NWA mechanic today is earning more than he would have had he agreed to the terms offered and I also believe that the Average NWA mechanic did better than the average FSC or Flight Attendant at NWA, even the ones that made it to Delta. What really sickening is that no matter what union it is, no matter what differences the Unions have between each other Unions should never be allied with management in going after another Union. These people seem to take pleasure in citing what happened at NWA, ignoring the fact that even those who gave concessions eventually lost their jobs and most also lost their Union even if they were fortunate(?) enough to be kept by Delta when Delta bought NWA. Fighting between Unions should never get to the point where a Union will build an alliance with the employer. 
 
I prefer to cite the EAL struggle, where the Unions stood together. In totality Labor won that battle, at a high cost for EAL workers but Labor did win. Every other worker in the Industry benefitted from the sacrifice made by the EAL workers when they decided to kill the company before allowing it to knock their wages down. It took 9-11 and people like Jim Little to bring the industry where Lorenzo was trying to go and beyond, but Labor did win back in 1989. Wages stabilized as EAL workers were absorbed by other carriers. They brought their militant fight back culture with them. Unfortunately our compensation now, thanks to the Jim Littles and other weak, pro company Union leaders,  in real terms makes what Lorenzo sought look generous. 

All very debatable issues and situations that only Historians will conclude who won and who lost? I can guarantee you though that every one of those top level managers at those carriers won't say they lost when you look at their homes and bank accounts. 

 

[Vortilon]

A one off? Losing a whole freakin airline? I mean c'mon now. Let;s not live in fantasyland ok. All I'm trying to do is make sure these guys keep their eyes and ears open.

In life you need to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. The template is already there man. Let's not be naive that SWA management doesn't have that book and won't use it if they feel so inclined?

Yea let's live in a World full of rainbows on that one.

 
 
Still trying to get some milage out of the NWA situation, nice.  Third Seat Hero is right, you haven't a clue as to what happened at NWA.  You got some bullet points from your TWU international handlers, and you incorporate them into your drive-bys.  Trouble is, your info is very biased, anti AMFA rhetoric.  Your snake oil won't sell here.

 

[Bob Owens]

All very debatable issues and situations that only Historians will conclude who won and who lost? I can guarantee you though that every one of those top level managers at those carriers won't say they lost when you look at their homes and bank accounts. 

Bank accounts that would have been larger had they won. 

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I hope SWA management is not gearing up to try and pull another NWA maneuver on you guys? I don't think they could file for BK but heck if they can prove to the Fed that they have your replacements ready to go the NMB could skew you and release you to strike someday?

You guys better be careful and watch out for that play. I wouldn't put anything past management when you're such a tiny group with almost no backing.

Wouldn't want to see another bloodbath in our industry after that massacre at NWA. That was brutal man.

 
They were planning on killing the entire airline, not just the AMFA. They were very close to being shut down by the FAA before they filed. They were forced to severely reduce their flight schedule due to our strike. 
 
As one of the few who lived that event that comes to these threads, I am here to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. I struck NWA after the last offer given. The bar kept getting raised every time there was an agreement. Finally, we were left with voting for losing over half of our workforce and what was left would have taken a 25% pay cut. 
 
I then watched guys who talked like you cross my picket line. 
 
NWA had no plans of ever coming to an agreement. They had the bankruptcy and merger with Delta planned as part of the forced strike/lock out of the AMFA. It is no coincidence that NWA and Delta filed for bankruptcy the same day. Then Richard Anderson (former NWA CEO) ends up CEO of the newly formed management team post bankruptcy. 
 
I hold my head high knowing I did not lick the boots of those who wanted to put NWA and Delta away for good and resurrect the best peices/parts under the 'new' Delta.
 
You and your TWU ilk are what has turned the industry into the shell it is now. You come on here and say how happy you are to be making what you are, while the industry is making the highest profits ever. Bob is correct. You should be demanding pay increases in double digit percentages now. Your union is so weak they will never work for your advantage. They will simply ask the airline to hire more workers, at your low wages, to increase dues flow to the machine. 
 
Yet, when these profits go away, they will come first to you to get the concessions. And you will be there, hand out, saying that "we need to give or else they might lay me off". GMAFB.  

 

[WeAAsles]

Bank accounts that would have been larger had they won. 

Quagmire just said it. They knew exactly what they were doing and got exactly what they wanted. They did win.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
As one of the few who lived that event that comes to these threads, I am here to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. I struck NWA after the last offer given. The bar kept getting raised every time there was an agreement. Finally, we were left with voting for losing over half of our workforce and what was left would have taken a 25% pay cut. 
 
I then watched guys who talked like you cross my picket line. 
 
NWA had no plans of ever coming to an agreement. They had the bankruptcy and merger with Delta planned as part of the forced strike/lock out of the AMFA. It is no coincidence that NWA and Delta filed for bankruptcy the same day. Then Richard Anderson (former NWA CEO) ends up CEO of the newly formed management team post bankruptcy. 
 
I hold my head high knowing I did not lick the boots of those who wanted to put NWA and Delta away for good and resurrect the best peices/parts under the 'new' Delta.
 
You and your TWU ilk are what has turned the industry into the shell it is now. You come on here and say how happy you are to be making what you are, while the industry is making the highest profits ever. Bob is correct. You should be demanding pay increases in double digit percentages now. Your union is so weak they will never work for your advantage. They will simply ask the airline to hire more workers, at your low wages, to increase dues flow to the machine. 
 
Yet, when these profits go away, they will come first to you to get the concessions. And you will be there, hand out, saying that "we need to give or else they might lay me off". GMAFB.  

You did what you thought was best for you. But you also had a ton of scabs who did what they thought was best for them. And those scabs went through the tunnel and are now working at Delta making what our guys over here at AA are aiming for. Does pride go before the fall or is pride something you should never lose sight of?

I have been on these boards long enough to have read your story a million times. I just chose not to get into the argument or debate about it. People made their choices and it's now a part of the history books. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself over at SWA? Saying it can't is BS and you guys know it. There were no laws that came out because of NWA to prevent it.

And FYI I voted yes for the 01 contract, didn't vote on the concessions, was going to vote no for the next group of concessions before the BK and voted yes with the BK gun pointed at my head.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

You did what you thought was best for you. But you also had a ton of scabs who did what they thought was best for them. And those scabs went through the tunnel and are now working at Delta making what our guys over here at AA are aiming for. Does pride go before the fall or is pride something you should never lose sight of?

I have been on these boards long enough to have read your story a million times. I just chose not to get into the argument or debate about it. People made their choices and it's now a part of the history books. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself over at SWA? Saying it can't is BS and you guys know it. There were no laws that came out because of NWA to prevent it.

And FYI I voted yes for the 01 contract, didn't vote on the concessions, was going to vote no for the next group of concessions before the BK and voted yes with the BK gun pointed at my head.

 
I agree with you and Bob that sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop a company from tearing itself apart for the benefit of a few. NWA and Delta did just that at the expense of its workforce. We all make choices. I made the choice to not be a willing partner in that ride. It sounds like you are sympathetic to the scabs with your comment. 
 
The title of this thread is appropriate for the TWU. They treat you all like you are peons even though you are the people that make these huge profits possible for the company. Either fight for your share, or get out of the way and let those who will, do it for you.

 

[dfw gen]

"Anyone expecting a contract anytime soon is sadly mistaken.  We won't even have one this year and this is the way the company wants it in order to please the investors first.  I would actually be shocked if we have anything to vote on by Jan 1, 2016.  With the way the company is delaying and delaying setting only one meet date in 3 months is just proof of what they are doing on purpose.  This Aug will be 3 years since amendable date, maybe after this date the company will start to get serious about settling a contract like they claim they want to do but we all know it's just smoke and mirrors."

Wow swamt I'm so sorry to read this. I don't get it? I thought AMFA was supposed to be the solution to all the problems that mechanics faced in the industry?

None of this makes any sense? Why is this happening to you guys?

I hope SWA management is not gearing up to try and pull another NWA maneuver on you guys? I don't think they could file for BK but heck if they can prove to the Fed that they have your replacements ready to go the NMB could skew you and release you to strike someday?

You guys better be careful and watch out for that play. I wouldn't put anything past management when you're such a tiny group with almost no backing.

Wouldn't want to see another bloodbath in our industry after that massacre at NWA. That was brutal man.

I suspect two years from now we will be reading the same release from the association if it passes.