and still nothing for the peons....

[WeAAsles]

 
I agree with you and Bob that sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop a company from tearing itself apart for the benefit of a few. NWA and Delta did just that at the expense of its workforce. We all make choices. I made the choice to not be a willing partner in that ride. It sounds like you are sympathetic to the scabs with your comment.

NO NO NO. Not in the slightest. Especially the one's who were brought in that had NEVER worked for the company before.  But I can say that knowing the story from both sides the one's who did work there that went back and crossed the line, I think I understand why they did it? Individual choices were made.
 
The title of this thread is appropriate for the TWU. They treat you all like you are peons even though you are the people that make these huge profits possible for the company. Either fight for your share, or get out of the way and let those who will, do it for you.

 

 

[WeAAsles]

I suspect two years from now we will be reading the same release from the association if it passes.

I doubt it? You have to look at the differences between the two when it comes to revenue generation and competition. The AA BK and then merger just put SWA in a different predicament then it had before that. "Future Projections"

I also think (hope) the SWA groups will see movement on their contracts once AA completes there's?

 

[WorldTraveler]

They were planning on killing the entire airline, not just the AMFA. They were very close to being shut down by the FAA before they filed. They were forced to severely reduce their flight schedule due to our strike. 
 
As one of the few who lived that event that comes to these threads, I am here to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. I struck NWA after the last offer given. The bar kept getting raised every time there was an agreement. Finally, we were left with voting for losing over half of our workforce and what was left would have taken a 25% pay cut. 
 
I then watched guys who talked like you cross my picket line. 
 
NWA had no plans of ever coming to an agreement. They had the bankruptcy and merger with Delta planned as part of the forced strike/lock out of the AMFA. It is no coincidence that NWA and Delta filed for bankruptcy the same day. Then Richard Anderson (former NWA CEO) ends up CEO of the newly formed management team post bankruptcy. 
 
I hold my head high knowing I did not lick the boots of those who wanted to put NWA and Delta away for good and resurrect the best peices/parts under the 'new' Delta.
 
You and your TWU ilk are what has turned the industry into the shell it is now. You come on here and say how happy you are to be making what you are, while the industry is making the highest profits ever. Bob is correct. You should be demanding pay increases in double digit percentages now. Your union is so weak they will never work for your advantage. They will simply ask the airline to hire more workers, at your low wages, to increase dues flow to the machine. 
 
Yet, when these profits go away, they will come first to you to get the concessions. And you will be there, hand out, saying that "we need to give or else they might lay me off". GMAFB.

and yet AMFA was dismantled, 5000 of the highest paid ground employees at NW and in the industry were eliminated, NW sold out to DL, and DL without a union is now more focused on MRO work and growing its maintenance operation than any unionized airline.

and Weaasles, WN's employee groups are being held right where they are until other airlines raise their salaries enough that WN's salaries are no longer so far above the industry any more.

 

[scorpion 2]

What Dave Virella told me was that they sold a portion of those shares. There are still plenty locked up in AAL. Remember that hey had to satisfy the court order to protect the immediate value that could have been won if the EBO people had been successful in their suit.

I hate to say this since I have a few hundred shares of AAL myself but looking at the performance of the stock since January it appears so far that was a good move to diversify even if they didn't "have" to do it.

Dave told me all of the numbers but I didn't write then down. Not sure what month last year they did diversify (Late in the year though) but if they've earned a return of 15% so far, that's pretty good.

All that and a buck fifty will get you a of coffee.  Locked up in AAL?  Had to satisfy the court?  Didn't have to do it?  !5% return from where? I didn't write nuttin down though!
Dave Virella told me its fun to sit on Lombardi"s lap too. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Quagmire just said it. They knew exactly what they were doing and got exactly what they wanted. They did win.

With  NWA, yes, they won and AMFA, ALPA, AFA, TWU and the IAM lost, in fact workers across the industry lost, "an injury to one really ends up being an injury to all" . None of them work for NWA anymore and everyone in the industry in real terms is making much less. The sacrifice of an airline means nothing to these people, they reassign the assets, paint them a different color and move on. The objective is to lower labor costs, to take money away from workers and put more money in their pockets. You can agree or disagree with Karl Marx but as an economist he was right when he said; 
 

"If the wages change, profits will change in an opposite direction. If wages fall, profits will rise; and if wages rise, profits will fall.
 
 

 
AA workers work under the worst terms in the industry, even worse than non-union, and their profits are the highest in the industry.
 
Granted Marx's perspective here ignores long term implications but in this example its spot on. 
 
 So yes, they won. In 1989 when the workers stood together and said NO, EAL was not able to gain the concessions they wanted, concessions that would have repeated themselves across the industry. The EAL guys who came to JFK and LGA were well above what they would have been making had they given in to Lorenzo within two years. They sacrificed the Airline and didn't get what they wanted, after 9-11 NWA was the sacrificial carrier, but this time the Unions did not stick together and we all lost and they won. So AMFA may have lost, but in reality we all did. You seem proud of that?  
 
Nobody ran around saying "you don't want to end up like EAL" in the 90s because the EAL guys still say they won. At NWA they don't say they won, the other side won, but their real victory is when people like you, who claim to be pro-union run around and say "You don't want to end up like NWA-Amfa"

 

[WeAAsles]

All that and a buck fifty will get you a of coffee.  Locked up in AAL?  Had to satisfy the court?  Didn't have to do it?  !5% return from where? I didn't write nuttin down though!
Dave Virella told me its fun to sit on Lombardi"s lap too.

You do know that the judge in the EBO suit ordered the union to protect the value of the shares at the time the suit was initiated? You do know that the TWU complied with that order by diversifying the shares held to protect the value from market volatility with leaving them solely invested in AAL? You do know that the EBO retirees lost their suit with prejudice? You do know that the EBO people filed an appeal of that judges ruling that last I heard was scheduled to be ruled on at the end of June? You do know that the EBO people have a slim chance in Hell of getting that ruling overturned?

I'm sure when you get your money and the TWU puts out a full accounting of the funds you won't believe them.

And I'm also quite sure you won't hire an accountant to check those financials either?

Can't have honesty and transparency on the boards now, can we.

 

[swamt]

The AMFA - NWA situation was a one-off, its not likely to happen again most especially at SWA.

Everybody has learned from that experience, and your right, not likely to happen again.
 

 
 
Still trying to get some milage out of the NWA situation, nice.  Third Seat Hero is right, you haven't a clue as to what happened at NWA.  You got some bullet points from your TWU international handlers, and you incorporate them into your drive-bys.  Trouble is, your info is very biased, anti AMFA rhetoric.  Your snake oil won't sell here.

Yea they are.  It's the ONLY thing they have left. Everything else they have been saying (lying) about AMFA has been proven wrong.  They always said AMFA was a broke union, AMFA is an association (oops look at the TWU and IAM now), AMFA farms everything out to get industry leading wages, AMFA never protects or fights for it's members or work, AMFA will sell out the O/H mechanics and only protect the line mechs, and on and on.  ALL these have been proven wrong and the only thing they have to try and keep the fear mongering going is the NWA fiasco.  So AMFA is condemed for fighting for it's members, standing up to the company, fighting for jobs and work when the company wanted over 53% of the mechanics gone, and the few that would have stayed would have to also take a 25-30% overall cut in pay and bennies.  Yea they should have just laid down and agreed to all the concessions like the TWU and IAM have been doing at their carriers.  Get a clue man, AMFA is the only union that has "proven" they will stand and fight for jobs and members, all the other 3 industrial have all proven they constantly fold and agree with their companies every single time.  Hands down there is no comaro between the 3 industrial unions and AMFA----PERIOD...

 

[WeAAsles]

With  NWA, yes, they won and AMFA, ALPA, AFA, TWU and the IAM lost, in fact workers across the industry lost, "an injury to one really ends up being an injury to all" . None of them work for NWA anymore and everyone in the industry in real terms is making much less. The sacrifice of an airline means nothing to these people, they reassign the assets, paint them a different color and move on. The objective is to lower labor costs, to take money away from workers and put more money in their pockets. You can agree or disagree with Karl Marx but as an economist he was right when he said; 
 
 
AA workers work under the worst terms in the industry, even worse than non-union, and their profits are the highest in the industry.
 
Granted Marx's perspective here ignores long term implications but in this example its spot on. 

No I don't agree with Marx's assessment especially not long term as you say. If wages fall all it becomes is a race to the bottom for retailers to try and sell there goods and services. We see it right now in retailers like Sears, JC Penny's and even Macy's. There not performing well and every time I walk into one of those stores it's like a Ghost town. Go into Ross though and the line is out the store. 

Unions are the only group that can fight back against that. But they need to fight together and coordinated.
 
 
 So yes, they won. In 1989 when the workers stood together and said NO, EAL was not able to gain the concessions they wanted, concessions that would have repeated themselves across the industry. The EAL guys who came to JFK and LGA were well above what they would have been making had they given in to Lorenzo within two years. They sacrificed the Airline and didn't get what they wanted, after 9-11 NWA was the sacrificial carrier, but this time the Unions did not stick together and we all lost and they won. So AMFA may have lost, but in reality we all did. You seem proud of that?  

Not in the slightest. I have nothing against AMFA. Just the people who come on here and paint a picture of all the other Unions out there being crap in comparison. As you said in your first paragraph (good) EVERY Union took their lumps and still continue to do so. (because they don't want to work together enough yet)
 
 
Nobody ran around saying "you don't want to end up like EAL" in the 90s because the EAL guys still say they won. At NWA they don't say they won, the other side won, but their real victory is when people like you, who claim to be pro-union run around and say "You don't want to end up like NWA-Amfa"

Still trying to paint your own personal portrait of me huh Bob? I've said before that ALL of the industries Unions should have supported AMFA. It should have been a European style walk out with the National Guard being called in, tear gas and rubber bullets. And that's even if AMFA really did say "Well take it from the IAM" (Before anyone hit's me, no I never have seen that in writing) 

But it's always about all those leather chairs that people put there asses into. You have one too Bob and I'm sure you like it very much.

 

[700UW]

Hey SWA,
 
AMFA is a union, just like the IAM, you know the International ASSOCIATION of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
 
But it's always about all those leather chairs that people put there asses into. You have one too Bob and I'm sure you like it very much.

Well I've never valued it more than my career as a mechanic, its a temporary assignment, not an entitlement, that I took to try and make what was once a very good job pay like one. Fixing planes is more fun (and easier) than trying to fix a broken Union. And this thing is undoubtably broken, if it were a plane it would never fly, structurally deficient.
 
Actually I did really like being President, Treasurer, not so much.  Never let the privilege of sitting in the leather chair stop me from saying what I felt needed to be said, despite repeated threats along the way. Going back is not a terrible fate , with OT I would make around the same and my 401K would reflect that.
 
At JFK I'm number 7 on the AMT list and 8 on the CC list, at LGA I'd be #3. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Well I've never valued it more than my career as a mechanic, its a temporary assignment, not an entitlement, that I took to try and make what was once a very good job pay like one. Fixing planes is more fun (and easier) than trying to fix a broken Union. And this thing is undoubtably broken, if it were a plane it would never fly, structurally deficient.

I hope that you're at least giving those guys at the top a chance? If you're talking about the guys on the bottom that's a puzzel I'm still trying to figure out?
 

Actually I did really like being President, Treasurer, not so much.  Never let the privilege of sitting in the leather chair stop me from saying what I felt needed to be said, despite repeated threats along the way. Going back is not a terrible fate , with OT I would make around the same and my 401K would reflect that.
 
At JFK I'm number 7 on the AMT list and 8 on the CC list, at LGA I'd be #3. 

Holy Moly if there's ever anything that can be said about the famous Bob Owens is that he will never shy away from speaking his mind.

If I ever go for a spot of some kind I'll buy my own leather chair. That way if I leave or get booted out I can just take it home with me because no one else ever owned it.

 

[Bob Owens]

I hope that you're at least giving those guys at the top a chance? If you're talking about the guys on the bottom that's a puzzel I'm still trying to figure out?
 

Holy Moly if there's ever anything that can be said about the famous Bob Owens is that he will never shy away from speaking his mind.

If I ever go for a spot of some kind I'll buy my own leather chair. That way if I leave or get booted out I can just take it home with me because no one else ever owned it.

Sure but time is running out. So far as many wrong moves as right ones. Its an improvement over Little but still not enough to inspire hope. Especially in light of the legacy issues Little created that they cant/wont challenge. If they had at least supported attacking 1167 I'd have something to show the guys, the NYC sick law was a small plus for the NY guys after a lot of work by Angelo from 501, but not enough to inspire hope. I really don't have anything at the moment other "than these guys are not Little and Co" but these guys have seen regime changes before, and things have only gotten worse.  Little ended up being worse than Koziatek and so on. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Sure but time is running out. So far as many wrong moves as right ones. Its an improvement over Little but still not enough to inspire hope. Especially in light of the legacy issues Little created that they cant/wont challenge. If they had at least supported attacking 1167 I'd have something to show the guys, the NYC sick law was a small plus for the NY guys after a lot of work by Angelo from 501, but not enough to inspire hope. I really don't have anything at the moment other "than these guys are not Little and Co" but these guys have seen regime changes before, and things have only gotten worse.  Little ended up being worse than Koziatek and so on. 

Angelo is a force of nature. People would be very wise to run with his lead. As far as the higher ups I think they are trying. You can't turn a ship overnight. They've absolutely taken it on the road though to hear people out enduring all the hits along the way. None of them are perfect though and they have to hear all of our opinions and make the best decisions possible even if we might not completely agree with them?

I think they know they got there work cut out for them though.

 

[Bob Owens]

Angelo is a force of nature. People would be very wise to run with his lead. As far as the higher ups I think they are trying. You can't turn a ship overnight. They've absolutely taken it on the road though to hear people out enduring all the hits along the way. None of them are perfect though and they have to hear all of our opinions and make the best decisions possible even if we might not completely agree with them?

I think they know they got there work cut out for them though.

Agreed but they treat Maintenance as if we already left. 

 

[scorpion 2]

You do know that the judge in the EBO suit ordered the union to protect the value of the shares at the time the suit was initiated? You do know that the TWU complied with that order by diversifying the shares held to protect the value from market volatility with leaving them solely invested in AAL? You do know that the EBO retirees lost their suit with prejudice? You do know that the EBO people filed an appeal of that judges ruling that last I heard was scheduled to be ruled on at the end of June? You do know that the EBO people have a slim chance in Hell of getting that ruling overturned?

I'm sure when you get your money and the TWU puts out a full accounting of the funds you won't believe them.

And I'm also quite sure you won't hire an accountant to check those financials either?

Can't have honesty and transparency on the boards now, can we.

A lot of you did knows that don't mean squat. The EBO's did help pass the contract by being mislead into thinking a few months wages would get them to the promised land. The twu did an abysmal job at schooling the membership on the paltry early out but that was the plan. They sold it as something great just to get yes votes and it worked. Now we are all dealing with the aftermath of the charade. Doyle letting the cat out of the bag started another what the Fuc@ is going on moment. Like I said earlier we will get the twu sanitized version of an accounting. There has NEVER been a detailed update as to the status of OUR stock. These boards are not the place to find out that OUR stock has been moved or sold! Honesty and transparency you are kidding right. Has anyone on these boards had an accounting of any kind sent to their homes as to the status of OUR shares of stock? I'm sure we will get some money that's a no brainer and very safe for you to say but pennies on the dollar is more like it.
The international is looking at you pal to give you the nod so keep up the posts.