AMFA......read on

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Didn't know a nameless, faceless, unpaid, angry blogger knew more than the experts.

I've also asked you to place me on your ignore list but for some juvenile reason you feel compelled to respond to me on this forum? Just like WorldTraveler I have no interest in you or your opinions and am placing you with him on my ignore list. Any further responses from you to something I post will be ignored and only show that you have little to no self control and also no credibility which you have already stated doesn't interest you anyway.

Goodbye.

Bye.

 

[Bob Owens]

Nonsense.   On a personal belief level, I agree with much of what you wrote.   Like Arpey, I saw airline bankruptcies and the casting off of promises and pension obligations as morally reprehensible.   
 
Years before you posted here, I posted here and elsewhere that in my view,  United and US Airways should have been shut down and liquidated to pay their pension promises (to the pilots, of course, since they were the ones who saw cuts to their accrued benefits).   
 
I was roundly criticized by many for such an unpopular view.   Here and elsewhere, people asked "how could I wish for tens of thousands of good people to lose their jobs?"   Well, it's an area where Bob Owens and I agree (and there aren't many of those).    Had UA and US shut down and liquidated, the remaining players would have picked up the pieces (and many of the employees) and continued to move the passengers around the country.      
 
Additionally, had they shut down, that would have removed some of the excess high-cost capacity from the country, helping the others.  
 
But instead of that, UA and US survived, albeit with huge paycuts and terminated pensions.   US then flew for eight more years solo,  dragging down the fare levels with its Advantage Fare program, which was aimed primarily at AA (where US connecting fares were much lower than AA's nonstop fares).   And thanks to the pilot war at US, Parker's airline had a huge labor cost advantage over its competitors, including AA.   A shutdown at US and UA would have been good.   
 
But however noble Arpey's view of bankruptcy may have been, it lacked the cold, calculating prowess of a winner in today's business climate.  Those who ignore the numbers and act on emotion are doomed to fail.   Including, eventually, Arpey himself.   Yes, the bastard extracted huge paycuts along with a variable compensation scheme that rewarded himself and other execs as AMR recovered from its $1.25/sh low in 2003 to $41/sh in January 2007.   For all his moral crusading on bankruptcy and promises kept - he was just another greedy bastard who wanted to share in the stockholders' windfall.   And windfall it was - I posted about my participation in that gluttony of riches.   
 
Once UA and US were able to terminate ALL of their employee pension obligations and foist them on the PBGC, the last act for AMR was written, but it would be a few years before we'd see it play out.   Eventually, the Board of Directors was convinced that Ch 11 was the only viable plan - helped by the pilots' rejection of AA's last offer just before the Ch 11 filing.   
 
Having finally filed for Ch 11, new management (since Arpey resigned rather than take AA into Ch 11) sought to use all the cost-saving tools that UA, US, DL and NW utilized, including terminating the pensions, which would preserve a lot of cash for years to come.   And all of a sudden, Gotbaum the Shithead was denying AMR the same benefit afforded to everyone else.   Remember the pro-merger employee cries of "All the other airlines got to merge and screw consumers - now it's AA's turn and the DoJ has no business interferring in AA's manifest destiny of merging with US and becoming the biggest airline."    Carried to its logical extreme, Laura Glading the Brilliant (she was delighted that the pensions were not terminated) was in favor of screwing consumers (since she was very pro-merger) and yet didn't want to over-tax the poor over-burdened PBGC by cutting AA's on-going pension costs.   How noble of her.   
 
I recognize that the pilots were VERY pleased that AA's pensions were frozen and not terminated.   I can also clearly see that all AA employees have long subsidized the pilot A plan (their defined benefit plan).   The most notable subsidies were the 2003 concessions instead of filing for Ch 11 then and the 2011 Ch 11 filing.   AA's pilots are not the highest paid in the industry but they're not far from the top.   AA's flight attendants aren't at the top, but they have long been close to the top.   
 
Can't say the same about AA's mechanics and fleet service.   AA's ground employees earn substantially less than their counterparts at WN, UPS, FedEX and even non-union jetBlue.   AA's TWU-represented employees have paid the biggest price for "saving the pensions."   Not only are your wages much lower than at the others I listed above, your retirement contributions are paltry.   On top of that, you now have no profit sharing just in time for AA's most profitable year EVER.   In the first six months of 2014,  the new AA has earned $1.9 billion before special items.   Unless oil prices skyrocket or unless the global conflicts magnify, AA is on track to earn about $4 billion in profits this year (before special items).   Horton the Devil offered everyone profit-sharing of 15% of first dollar profits.   That was his opening offer in the Term Sheets, for Chrissakes, and yet here you are today with ZERO profit sharing.   Competent unions would have demanded and held out for 20% profit sharing and would have applauded termination of all pensions.   The pilots could have been compensated with more stock to offset their A-plan termination and the only people who would have paid for that would be the holders of old AMR stock (AAMRQ) who would not have been enriched with a huge windfall.  Yep.  A second windfall about 10 years after the last time.  
 
Like I said - on a personal level, abandoning pensions is a bad thing.   And on that personal level, I agree with more of your views than you think.   But contributing $1.5 billion to the underfunded pensions in the three years 2012-14?   Might as well have set fire to a pile of cash.  Remember the "backpack of bricks?"  Well, the on-going pension contributions are another example of filling the backpack with bricks.   Or think of it this way:   Might as well just load 10,000 pounds of ballast onto every mainline flight.   Bags of sand would work.   That might help AA spend $720 million more on fuel this year with no corresponding benefit.   AA's pension contributions are no different.   AA had a legal right to abandon that expense and was bullied into keeping that expense, and the staggering part is that employees and union leaders cheered AA's higher on-going expenses as a result.
 
Anyway - back to the topic:   The combination of two unions that have consistently failed to achieve higher wages for their maintenance constituents doesn't look to me like the recipe for success.   If AA's mechanics and related want to go a different route, like with AMFA, they should be afforded that chance.

I disagree as far as Arpeys motives for no going into BK. I don't see it as a noble stand but more of an act. AA got to ride out concessions that much longer then add on and extend them another six years. The earlier they filed then the earlier the game would have ended for the whole industry. The industry will enjoy nearly 20 years of concessions they never would have won through regular negotiations and if AA had filed in 2003, US never would have refiled in 2005 and we all would have likely recovered most of what we lost by the close of the decade.

While the industry may be competitive when it comes to screwing over the workers and not paying their fair share of taxes they are all on the same page.

 

[700UW]

And Bob, US went back into chapter 11 in 2004, not 2005. They refiled in October of 2004 and our first negotiations session was election day in Nov of 2004.

 

[swamt]

#1 Please explain why your the "BIGGEST" proponent of the IAM, when you don't work for them or "ANY" airline.....might shed some light on your motives!
 
#2 How exactly does me not agreeing with you, show a lack of intelligence.........if anything, quite the contrary!
 
#3 Do you always change the subject, when backed into a corner?
 
#4 Why do you have a problem with AMFA? I would think, being a pro-union peep, any union would be better than none at all!
And if I had a choice and had to choose a union, it sure as hell wouldn't be the IAM!
 
#5 Show me exactly where I said people should not be able to vote in (or out) a union?
You come on here promising people the moon, if they join the IAM and all I do is point out the negative aspects of the IAM.
 
What? You don't like people having all the facts and making an informed decision, that affects their livelihood ?

This makes for better reading guys.  A much more positive one at that. More enjoyable and relaxing:-
 
This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by 700UW. View it anyway?

 

[1AA]

[SIZE=11.5pt]AMFA Update[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]We have been getting a lot of questions about where we are with the drive at this point, and as most of you know the original plan was for us to collect enough cards to file for an election by the end of August.  This intent was to file against the TWU and leave US Airways out of it, to which we were on pace to have enough cards to do just that. Unfortunately in May 2014, the gate agents at AA and US Airways filed for and received a single carrier determination from the NMB.  At that point, we could no longer file simply against the TWU because all they would have to do is ask for a single carrier filing due to the determination in the gate agent case.  This would most likely result in a single carrier ruling, in which AMFA would not have enough cards to get a vote due to the lack of US Airways cards.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11.5pt]Since the end of May, we have been collecting cards at US Airways, and I am happy to report that it is going well.  We recruited many of the former IBT organizers, and many others who simply support the idea of a craft union like AMFA.  In addition, we have met at least 8 former NWA mechanics that have joined our ranks and are currently pushing for Amfa at US Airways.  Our goal is to collect enough cards from the combined groups to file by the time the TWU/IAM Association attempts their vote, which we estimate to happen sometime towards the end of September to mid-October.  With your help we can reach this goal.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11.5pt]It is important to understand where we are today, now that the TWU/IAM filed for a single carrier ruling on August 6.  It typically takes the NMB 4 to 6 weeks to make a single carrier determination, and on that day, a 30 day clock will start for the TWU/IAM association to get a ruling granting them the association without a vote, or for the NMB to set a date for a vote.  The interesting point here is how does the association get on the ballot?  As you know, the TWU will be on any ballot based on them being the largest union on the property, and the IAM would be given credit for their 4400 members.  This would mean that the IAM would need to sign additional TWU members to reach 35% requirement to be on the ballot.  AMFA would have to sign 50% plus one of the combined workforces to get on the ballot as an intervener. The TWU wants the NMB to simply place the TWU/IAM association on the ballot without being an incumbent or submitting cards for a show of interest.  We do not believe that this is fair and will oppose the association on this point.  If the association is not placed on the ballot, and the IAM does not have sufficient cards, the IAM would lose their right to represent their members at the end of the 30 days by a failure to show interest.  If they set a vote, we would have to submit our cards by the end of the 30 days to be on the ballot.  However if we are unable to reach sufficient cards by then, there will be a spot on any NMB sanctioned ballot for "other" and all one would have to do is check the box next to "other" and write AMFA and your vote will be counted for AMFA.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11.5pt]We have well over 5500 email addresses on file and will keep you informed as to what needs to be done as the situation progresses.  We would ask that you share this info with fellow employees, and if you have a question you can contact us at our website [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]www.amfa-aa.com[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] or call Don Rodgers 918-906-7112 with any questions. I would end by reminding everyone that none of our cards expire until mid-January 2015.  We do not know what the NMB will rule, so the best thing to do is keep pushing for cards because every card puts us one step closer to removing the TWU from power.  With every signed card we also receive an email address, which allows us to speak directly to more people when we either run a "write-in," or "on the ballot," campaign for an election.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11.5pt]As Always Thanks for your Support![/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Your AMFA Organizing Committee US/AA[/SIZE]

 

[WNMECH]

AMFA Update
We have been getting a lot of questions about where we are with the drive at this point, and as most of you know the original plan was for us to collect enough cards to file for an election by the end of August.  This intent was to file against the TWU and leave US Airways out of it, to which we were on pace to have enough cards to do just that. Unfortunately in May 2014, the gate agents at AA and US Airways filed for and received a single carrier determination from the NMB.  At that point, we could no longer file simply against the TWU because all they would have to do is ask for a single carrier filing due to the determination in the gate agent case.  This would most likely result in a single carrier ruling, in which AMFA would not have enough cards to get a vote due to the lack of US Airways cards.
 
Since the end of May, we have been collecting cards at US Airways, and I am happy to report that it is going well.  We recruited many of the former IBT organizers, and many others who simply support the idea of a craft union like AMFA.  In addition, we have met at least 8 former NWA mechanics that have joined our ranks and are currently pushing for Amfa at US Airways.  Our goal is to collect enough cards from the combined groups to file by the time the TWU/IAM Association attempts their vote, which we estimate to happen sometime towards the end of September to mid-October.  With your help we can reach this goal.
 
It is important to understand where we are today, now that the TWU/IAM filed for a single carrier ruling on August 6.  It typically takes the NMB 4 to 6 weeks to make a single carrier determination, and on that day, a 30 day clock will start for the TWU/IAM association to get a ruling granting them the association without a vote, or for the NMB to set a date for a vote.  The interesting point here is how does the association get on the ballot?  As you know, the TWU will be on any ballot based on them being the largest union on the property, and the IAM would be given credit for their 4400 members.  This would mean that the IAM would need to sign additional TWU members to reach 35% requirement to be on the ballot.  AMFA would have to sign 50% plus one of the combined workforces to get on the ballot as an intervener. The TWU wants the NMB to simply place the TWU/IAM association on the ballot without being an incumbent or submitting cards for a show of interest.  We do not believe that this is fair and will oppose the association on this point.  If the association is not placed on the ballot, and the IAM does not have sufficient cards, the IAM would lose their right to represent their members at the end of the 30 days by a failure to show interest.  If they set a vote, we would have to submit our cards by the end of the 30 days to be on the ballot.  However if we are unable to reach sufficient cards by then, there will be a spot on any NMB sanctioned ballot for "other" and all one would have to do is check the box next to "other" and write AMFA and your vote will be counted for AMFA.
 
We have well over 5500 email addresses on file and will keep you informed as to what needs to be done as the situation progresses.  We would ask that you share this info with fellow employees, and if you have a question you can contact us at our website www.amfa-aa.com[/size] or call Don Rodgers 918-906-7112 with any questions. I would end by reminding everyone that none of our cards expire until mid-January 2015.  We do not know what the NMB will rule, so the best thing to do is keep pushing for cards because every card puts us one step closer to removing the TWU from power.  With every signed card we also receive an email address, which allows us to speak directly to more people when we either run a "write-in," or "on the ballot," campaign for an election.
 
As Always Thanks for your Support!
Your AMFA Organizing Committee US/AA

I like what you are saying and can really appreciate your efforts.
However, you are making a couple of assumptions of what you think will happen.
Also, I remember that the last time AMFA was trying to submit cards, it was broadcast as to exactly when it would happen.
That allowed the IBT and AA to collude and beat you at your own game by filing both on the same day ahead of AMFA organizers.
All I am saying is, whatever you expect to happen probably won't and any information you give out about your timelines, card numbers or tactics, may be used against you.

Good luck though.

 

[WNMECH]

To be clear, there is no proof that AA and the IBT conspired to keep AMFA from getting an election.
It is just a suspicious fact that they both filed within hours of each other when all the assumptions were that it would take up to 30 days for AA to file a list to the NMB after a representational request was filed.
It is just interesting that AA was ready so quickly.

 

[1AA]

The update I posted was from the organizing committee. I just did a copy and paste.
As far as letting out the details or different scenarios....
The TWU, IAM, American Airlines, NMB and AMFA all know what is currently going on. The results will be determined by the NMB. It is important for the M&E folks to stay updated and realize that we have options in any upcoming decision. As far as the IBT's past drive that failed due to numerous reasons? There were many allegations and signed affidavits to the forgery but the IBT bailed out before that part of the investigation played out.
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2013/08/02/teamsters-we-did-not-raid-american-we-were-invited-in/#comment_reply
 
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11973341/1/amr-union-election-delayed-by-forgery-charge-and-voter-challenge.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO
 
 
I have a PDF file related to the forgery at AA by the IBT but the file is too large to upload.
 

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The fact that the TWU conspired with the ibt, alone should be more than enough to ensure they have no part in your future representation.

 

[WNMECH]

The update I posted was from the organizing committee. I just did a copy and paste.
As far as letting out the details or different scenarios....
The TWU, IAM, American Airlines, NMB and AMFA all know what is currently going on. The results will be determined by the NMB. It is important for the M&E folks to stay updated and realize that we have options in any upcoming decision. As far as the IBT's past drive that failed due to numerous reasons? There were many allegations and signed affidavits to the forgery but the IBT bailed out before that part of the investigation played out.

 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2013/08/02/teamsters-we-did-not-raid-american-we-were-invited-in/#comment_reply
 
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11973341/1/amr-union-election-delayed-by-forgery-charge-and-voter-challenge.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO
 
 
I have a PDF file related to the forgery at AA by the IBT but the file is too large to upload.

Yes the forgery stuff played a role but ultimately it was the action of AA supplying the list just hours after the IBT filed that locked AMFA off the ballot.
And then the ruling by the NMB that confirmed it.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/bb/newsarchive/aDCbGMTWSg8A.html
 
For reasons yet unknown, American Airlines was able to produce the eligibility
list and the thousands of sample signature cards, shortly before 4:00 p.m. on
the same day as the Teamsters filing—May 28, 2013.  The NMB then denied the
right of American Airlines mechanics to submit their authorization cards in
favor of AMFA's intervenor status.

AMFA better be ready for anything this time.

 

[1AA]

Actually the reasons are obvious. The AMFA drive was kicking butt in Tulsa and the TWU went and asked the IBT to start a diversionary drive. Then the cards in Tulsa started slowing down and more Tulsa guys started to believe the IBT lies about opening up a contract and getting us more money and so on. The TWU being a company union probably kept AA in on the loop of the events of the drive. Then the IBT decided to go for the drive because they saw $$$$$$. The company, TWU and the IBT were more than likely communicating on the time frame of a filing even though the IBT decided to take a run at it. Or at least that is what they wanted everyone to believe this to create another diversion. So the list supplied from the company showed up in a matters of hours instead of days. Many are more than upset at what the IBT did and are now AMFA supporters and organizers at both AA and USAir. Hopefully this time around more guys are on the same page and ready to push the TWU, IAM and this alliance out to the curb. We will see when the NMB makes their decision and how many guys have signed cards. Whatever the outcome, prevail or fail it always comes down to us the members who failed or became victorious.

 

[700UW]

Are you sure you think your 401k is the way to go?
 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/retirement-gamble/teresa-ghilarducci-why-the-401k-is-a-failed-experiment/

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Are you sure you think your 401k is the way to go?
 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/retirement-gamble/teresa-ghilarducci-why-the-401k-is-a-failed-experiment/

 
Again the almighty Voice of the IAM Speaks, lets make sure we all listen. (just Kidding)
 
Remember this is NOT about You its just your constant Rhetoric and the IAM.
 
"YES"  I would say that after all the post here on the IAM pension plan I think most here DON'T want your info on the IAM pension plan.
 
This thread is about the AMFA Drive here at AA, where it is and what the plan for the future as we move closer to the complete merger of US/AA. The mechanics  at both are signing cards and will up to the point that either the NMB says there will be NO Vote or the cards get filed.
 
AMFA does not have anything to do with pensions. Neither does the TWU.
 
Most companies are moving to 401k plans. No down line restrictions if you need to go back to work like the IAM and IBT plans. Each individual can handle his/her own money.
 
AMFA at AA 2014

 

[1AA]

Most of our class and craft at American Airlines do not realize how AMFA operates specifically local and national officers.

AMFA local and national officers:

Local Presidents. On the clock working, in the head count, right next to the members who elected him and if need be the president will go on Union business

Regional Reps: On the clock working, in the head count, right next tothe members who elected him and only if need be goes on UB.

National Officers: Only 2 national officers are on UB full time, the rest report to work, in the head count right next to the members who elected him and only go on UB when necessary.

This is keeps AMFA's operating expenses low and they have a higher money value per member ratio than the TWU or the teamsters even though they are bigger.

Under AMFA concept of operation, you do not have to call your representatives they are working with you just ask them while your getting your plane out and you won't have to explain to your rep the issues he will know them!

If we had the AMFA model here at AA, then All our International reps would be working with us on a crew at least a few days a week. imagine that ever happening with the TWU on the property?


Had enough yet?

Sign an AMFA card and lets file the cards!

AMFA does not deal with pensions or 401K's.
As a reminder this topic is about AMFA. Reference post #1 above.
If you want to talk about pensions versus 401K's then please do so and start a new thread. Lets try to prevent this thread from drifting and end up closed.
Thank you.

 

[bikeguy]

Anyone know how close AMFA is to filing for an election at AA?