AMFA......read on

[700UW]

 So instead of the company giving the members $2 more an hour, they just contribute to the pension fund?
 
You are truly naive if you think that the company is generously funding a pension when they went bankrupt to terminate it. 
Like blue collar said, its going into the fund rather than the employees pockets..
It is still coming out of the members' pockets.

Do you really think that they would do that?
 
If you do I have some ocean front property in AZ for you.
 
Your company cant terminate your pension now.
 
And one company cant terminate a multi-employer plan.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Alright then let's throw a little question in here since you're so sure. Why is it then that every FSC I've spoken to from airlines that threw there obligations on the PBGC tell me that the amount they're going to draw per month is substantially less than what they were supposed to receive prior to that happening?

 
WeAAsles
 
If the fund is underfunded when it goes into the PBGC then you receive the amount after that calculation is done.
 
Example;  If you we were to rcv $100.00 a month and the fund was 20% under funded you will get $80.00 from PBGC.
 
We as ground workers don't make enough money to reach the max amount set by them.
 
Pilots got screwed since most make more and retirement is Lots of money. 

 

[WeAAsles]

 
WeAAsles
 
If the fund is underfunded when it goes into the PBGC then you receive the amount after that calculation is done.
 
Example;  If you we were to rcv $100.00 a month and the fund was 20% under funded you will get $80.00 from PBGC.
 
We as ground workers don't make enough money to reach the max amount set by them.
 
Pilots got screwed since most make more and retirement is Lots of money. 

So the PBGC was saying that it was undefunded by 10 Bil and the company was saying 5 Bil. What percentage of underfunding was that?

Any way you cut it though I'm glad we didn't go into the PBGC to have to make any guesses. That agency has some really big issues coming down the pipe.

 

[MetalMover]

Do you really think that they would do that?
 
If you do I have some ocean front property in AZ for you.
 
Your company cant terminate your pension now.
 
And one company cant terminate a multi-employer plan.

And you think your IAM pension is exempt?
The employees are still funding their own pension...

 

[FWAAA]

 
WeAAsles
 
If the fund is underfunded when it goes into the PBGC then you receive the amount after that calculation is done.
 
Example;  If you we were to rcv $100.00 a month and the fund was 20% under funded you will get $80.00 from PBGC.

No, that's not how it works.   Not at all.
 
If a plan is terminated but has sufficient funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits.
 
if a plan is terminated but is underfunded and does not have funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits subject to the maximum monthly benefit (which is a function of the age on which you retired and begin collecting benefits).

 

[700UW]

 
WeAAsles
 
If the fund is underfunded when it goes into the PBGC then you receive the amount after that calculation is done.
 
Example;  If you we were to rcv $100.00 a month and the fund was 20% under funded you will get $80.00 from PBGC.
 
We as ground workers don't make enough money to reach the max amount set by them.
 
Pilots got screwed since most make more and retirement is Lots of money. 

Wrong, the US plan was $2.3 billion underfunded when it was turned over, I am going to receive the same dollar amount that I would have received at the 17 year mark as I would at 17 years if the plan wasnt terminated and I confirmed that this morning with the PBGC and the IAM Pension Expert at US Airways.
 
The only people at US who got screwed dry were the pilots.

 

[WeAAsles]

No, that's not how it works.   Not at all.
 
If a plan is terminated but has sufficient funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits.
 
if a plan is terminated but is underfunded and does not have funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits subject to the maximum monthly benefit (which is a function of the age on which you retired and begin collecting benefits).

 
“Unless Congress acts — and acts very soon — many plans will fail; more than one million people will lose their pensions, and thousands of small businesses will be handed bills they can’t pay,” said Joshua Gotbaum, executive director of the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.
 
“If Congress allows the PBGC to get the money and the authority it needs to do its job, then these plans can be preserved,” he told the New York Times. “If not, the PBGC will run out of money, too, and multiemployer pensioners will get virtually nothing. This is not something that can wait a few years. If people kick the can down the road, they’ll find it went off a cliff.”

http://www.benefitspro.com/2014/04/14/pbgc-could-go-down-due-to-underfunded-multiemploye

 

[FWAAA]

Wrong, the US plan was $2.3 billion underfunded when it was turned over, I am going to receive the same dollar amount that I would have received at the 17 year mark as I would at 17 years if the plan wasnt terminated and I confirmed that this morning with the PBGC and the IAM Pension Expert at US Airways.
 
The only people at US who got screwed dry were the pilots.

Exactly my point in post #352.  
 
Generally, there's no difference to employees between a freeze and a termination unless your monthly benefit exceeds the PBGC maximums.   And at airlines, that's typically only the pilots.   There may have been a few nonpilots who began working at age 18-20 (say, fleet or maintenance or flight attendant) and who then retired at age 60 with full pension (AA provided full benefits at 60) and then a termination might trim their benefit due to their "early retirement" (that was the double whammy for many pilots when they had to retire at 60).    

 

[jimntx]

IIRC, the maximum amount that the PBGC can pay is something like $2500/month. There are very few people working at an airline (or at most any company)--with the exception of the pilots and the executives--that would ever qualify for a pension equal to (much less exceeding) $2500/mo pension.

 

[FWAAA]

So the PBGC was saying that it was undefunded by 10 Bil and the company was saying 5 Bil. What percentage of underfunding was that?

Any way you cut it though I'm glad we didn't go into the PBGC to have to make any guesses. That agency has some really big issues coming down the pipe.

So you're glad that AA is contributing a lot more to its frozen pensions than AA's competitors?   Even though those contributions don't change your benefit?   Wow.   

Here are the numbers:   In 2012,  AA contributed $277 million to the pensions (once it became clear that PBGC would fight termination).  In 2013,  AA contributed $500 million.   In 2014,  AA is planning to put $720 million into the pensions.   None of that cash caused your benefits to increase.   They're frozen at what you had already accrued.    

That's money that AA can't use to pay you and your fellow employees.   $720 million this year is more than the profit sharing that DL will pay out to its employees.    

 

[FWAAA]

IIRC, the maximum amount that the PBGC can pay is something like $2500/month. There are very few people working at an airline (or at most any company)--with the exception of the pilots and the executives--that would ever qualify for a pension equal to (much less exceeding) $2500/mo pension.

The maximum monthly benefit is actually more generous than that.   For plans terminating in 2011,  the PBGC max at age 65 was $4,500 (single-life annuity) and $4,050 for a joint and 50% survivor annuity.   Generally, only the pilots had pensions that exceeded those numbers.   
 
http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/guaranteed-benefits/maximum-guarantee.html#2012

 

[WeAAsles]

So you're glad that AA is contributing a lot more to its frozen pensions than AA's competitors?   Even though those contributions don't change your benefit?   Wow.

What the hell do I care about what AA is contributing compared to it's competitors? Make sure my Pension is 100% funded and they can move on and skip merrily down the road from it.

Sounds to me like you would have been ecstatic if AA had been allowed to throw my pension on an already stressed and way underfunded insurer.

Here are the numbers:   In 2012,  AA contributed $277 million to the pensions (once it became clear that PBGC would fight termination).  In 2013,  AA contributed $500 million.   In 2014,  AA is planning to put $720 million into the pensions.   None of that cash caused your benefits to increase.   They're frozen at what you had already accrued.

Nothing is frozen if it isn't fully funded to have all the money necessary to cover the payouts. What is the magical Pension fairy just going to put my retirement money under my pillow?  

That's money that AA can't use to pay you and your fellow employees.   $720 million this year is more than the profit sharing that DL will pay out to its employees.

That 720 million is money that should have been in there in the first place. The old AA WAS NOT keeping up to it's obligation to give me what was negotiated. And the laws are what gave them the ability to do so.   

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

No, that's not how it works.   Not at all.
 
If a plan is terminated but has sufficient funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits.
 
if a plan is terminated but is underfunded and does not have funding to pay the promised benefits, then the PBGC pays the promised benefits subject to the maximum monthly benefit (which is a function of the age on which you retired and begin collecting benefits).

FWAAA
 
Thats the way it was explained to me when I asked for the paperwork from the PBGC.
 
They also explained that I was also subject to the rules of early withdrawal due to age as well. Which is 6% a yr before 62 with Eastern. Since I will rcv almost $400.00 a month for 10yrs of EAL service from the pbgc if I wait a couple of yrs I decided not to send in the papers to draw it now. No one can explain or knows what we were supposed to get if EAL did not go into BK. I don't know anyone with that documentation.
 
But if I was old enough I could draw it now even though I am still working. There are guys here in Miami that are EX - EAL and drawing it.

 

[700UW]

The PBGC adheres too and goes by the plan terms.
 
If you were still at EA (if it was around) and you retired early, of course the payout is reduced.

 

[WeAAsles]

A law should be passed that calls on companies that threw their obligations on the PBGC through the bankruptcy process that if they successfully reorganize and are now solvent and making X amount of profit that their former obligations revert back.

The BK process in many cases is a scam to funnel money. The government insurer takes on the responsibility while companies who are now earning in some cases record profit share that profit with Management and their criminal friends on Wall Street.

The only reason our Pension is not on the PBGC is because of the funding break that was offered to both AA and Continental that others who went through the BK process were given in making contributions to the PBGC stretched out. After that was granted it made it that much harder for AA to dump their responsibilities and thanks to Josh Gottbaum and the lobbying of others to the POTUS and Congress it was saved.

Essentially AA's timing sucked for them and their criminal friends on Beat Street.