AMFA......read on

[700UW]

The union doesn't administer the plan. You criticize the plan and yet you don't even know how the plan operates. It has a director appointed by the board of trustees who are made up of half selected by the IAM and half selected by the companies that contribute to it on behalf of their employees. The plan is a separate entity from the IAM.

It is truly amazing that people don't educate themselves.

 

[Kev3188]

You are NOT going to change anyone's mind no matter how much you claim that what you post is factual. We are sick and tired of these the industrial union "half a loaf is better than no loaf" and " we all pay the same for a quart of milk" mantra that I have been listening to for nearly 40 years. The way they conduct business with their arrogance is no different than the companies we work for.

Well, when you & I walk into the store, the price is the same. That whole meme is a misnomer, though.

We're all focused on the price; the goal is to raise our collective standard(s) of living, so that that "loaf of bread" takes a smaller bite out of our income.

Do not let the ineptitude of people like Little, Scotty Ford, & DePace distract from the larger goal...

 

[WeAAsles]

Many workers got screwed by their companies and lost their pensions and had it reduced on the PBGC..I would not feel any safer having a UNION administer it. 

With laws in place that allow for underfunding or in regards to multiemployer pensions the rates being changed at will, I'm not even comfortable with the word "Pension" anymore. If you've read a few articles out there the US is headed for a retirement crisis in regards to pensions of all kinds. The Republicans have even gone as far as recently wanting to attach a Bill that allows State and Local Governments to be able to underfund their pensions even more. It's easily surmised that our elected reps and the Corporations who fund them want us to work until we drop. And if you can no longer work you will wind up on some type of horrible Government assistance existence in the future. 

But it's as George Carlin said a long time ago. "We vote for these rich c##ksuckers who don't give a damn about us" So who's the fools?

 

[MetalMover]

The union doesn't administer the plan. You criticize the plan and yet you don't even know how the plan operates. It has a director appointed by the board of trustees who are made up of half selected by the IAM and half selected by the companies that contribute to it on behalf of their employees. The plan is a separate entity from the IAM.

It is truly amazing that people don't educate themselves.

The company contributes OUT OF YOUR PAY! ONCE SOMETHING IS TAKEN OUT OF YOUR PAY, YOU CONTRIBUTE!

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

700UW
 
You take all this to heart and get all defensive but we Just Don't care about the IAM or its Pension.  We are attempting to bring in AMFA. After all the times you have been told you just come back for more. You have asked us are we stupid how many times? This is about US the mechanics of Both US/AA. NOT YOU.
 
The IAM pension is a two tier plan now so we would not get the same as other who have been in the plan since its conception. If the IAM plan does not control it then how come the IAM can stop my pension payments if I go back to work to subsidise my pension and ssn? IAM/Company controlled with appointed admin person.
 
I really don't need the answer. Just don't care, I make more with my 401k. The numbers have been proven.
 
You are correct you can post any where you want we do understand a msg board, we Just don't get the fact that a NON Airline person who has been out of the industry is so wrapped up in telling workers what they need and whats so good about the IAM.
 
The PBCG has a set amount which as ground workers we will not hit so we get what we have coming less the under funded amount the plan had before entering the PBGC.
The IAM has/had an age limit that you can collect and had a penalty for early with draw before a certain age. At Eastern its 62 with a 6% cost cut if drawn before that age.
At AA it would be 60 with a 3% before 60. Some of us here do some homework as well.
We are not perfect or are we as ate up with it as much as you.
 
This about bringing AMFA a Union in which we feel will do better than the TWU for us.
 
If the USAir guys join us in this and sign cards that will make a statement as well that they have had enough of the industrial way of doing things.
 
You have called myself and other here elitist, stupid and many other thing when we throw stuff you had said back in your face. We don't know you nor do we care who YOU are. It's the facts and the pushing of the IAM agenda.  We Hate the TWU, you have never been or an AA employee either so when we ask you to stop why can't you take your knowledge which is by your standards HIGH and go tell people who care what you are selling.
 
It's not you is your product.

 

[MetalMover]

Well, when you & I walk into the store, the price is the same. That whole meme is a misnomer, though.

We're all focused on the price; the goal is to raise our collective standard(s) of living, so that that "loaf of bread" takes a smaller bite out of our income.

Do not let the ineptitude of people like Little, Scotty Ford, & DePace distract from the larger goal...

Actually what I was referring to was that has been typical airline industrial union rhethoric when mechanics were trying to get a better deal because of the difference on work performed.  

 

[FWAAA]

The PBGC was quoted as saying in their belief the Pension was underfunded by 10 Bil. The Company was saying that their accounting was wrong and it was 5 Bil. Who are we to believe? Looking at the things I read yes we all would have taken a cut in earned benefits. Just ask any others who are under the PBGC today. Yes also the Pilots would have taken it in the shorts the hardest.

Now add on top of that the fact that the PBGC currently has a 30 Bil deficit to make future payouts. Who is coming to the rescue there? Are Taxpayers who have no pension of their own going to agree to say "Sure let's bail out the system" I highly doubt it. So one day what is going to happen to people's benefits when the system is overloaded. No bailout is my guess. So my guess is further benefit cuts. Had we been thrown in their it would have been the largest default in US history.

I can absolutely understand the urgency for others to want us in the IAMPF. They need as many people as they can get into it to make sure that future payouts are possible. There is no product sold to help keep it healthy. The product is those who are a part of it and what we contribute. It honestly is a classic pyramid and those who are on the top are the one's who benefit the most. And someone has to be on the bottom always.

You're incorrect.   

The 2003 concessions were sold to the AA employees in part because they "saved the pension."   While you did get several more years of accrual (years of service), the beneficiaries of "saving the pension" were the pilots.   They're the only group (other than management) whose pensions exceed the PBGC monthly maximum guarantee.
 
The level of underfunding when AA finally filed Ch 11 was irrelevant except for the pilots.   Gotbaum argued to deny AA the same benefit afforded to UA, DL and US, all of which terminated their underfunded pilot pensions.  Since it was underfunded, the PBGC would pay only up to their monthly maximum.   And unless you're a pilot, that was very unlikely to affect you.   
 
Now,  AA has a cash obligation that requires real cash every year but doesn't make your pension any larger than it would have been if AA had been permitted to terminate it and turn it over to the PBGC.   Those pension contributions (like all expenses) are cash that AA doesn't have to pay you.
 
Termination would have sucked for the pilots, but termination wouldn't have changed your benefit.  Your frozen benefit is going to be exactly the same as it would have been had the pensions been terminated.   

 

[Kev3188]

Actually what I was referring to was that has been typical airline industrial union rhethoric when mechanics were trying to get a better deal because of the difference on work performed.

I know.

Unfortunately, not only did your (sometimes) elected leaders buy into it, so too did many of your colleagues. What'd we get for all that besides a lovely circular firing squad. Nothing capital loves more than to watch us wrestle around for the scraps.

Look, I'm all for whatever union means the most member engagement. Period. But let's not lose sight of the larger goal here.

 

[WeAAsles]

You're incorrect.   

The 2003 concessions were sold to the AA employees in part because they "saved the pension."   While you did get several more years of accrual (years of service), the beneficiaries of "saving the pension" were the pilots.   They're the only group (other than management) whose pensions exceed the PBGC monthly maximum guarantee.
 
The level of underfunding when AA finally filed Ch 11 was irrelevant except for the pilots.   Gotbaum argued to deny AA the same benefit afforded to UA, DL and US, all of which terminated their underfunded pilot pensions.  Since it was underfunded, the PBGC would pay only up to their monthly maximum.   And unless you're a pilot, that was very unlikely to affect you.   
 
Now,  AA has a cash obligation that requires real cash every year but doesn't make your pension any larger than it would have been if AA had been permitted to terminate it and turn it over to the PBGC.   Those pension contributions (like all expenses) are cash that AA doesn't have to pay you.
 
Termination would have sucked for the pilots, but termination wouldn't have changed your benefit.  Your frozen benefit is going to be exactly the same as it would have been had the pensions been terminated.   

Alright then let's throw a little question in here since you're so sure. Why is it then that every FSC I've spoken to from airlines that threw there obligations on the PBGC tell me that the amount they're going to draw per month is substantially less than what they were supposed to receive prior to that happening?

 

[700UW]

The company contributes OUT OF YOUR PAY! ONCE SOMETHING IS TAKEN OUT OF YOUR PAY, YOU CONTRIBUTE!

Please show us where there is a deduction on any IAMNPF member for that.
 
Let me give you a hint, you cant.

 

[blue collar]

Please show us where there is a deduction on any IAMNPF member for that.
 
Let me give you a hint, you cant.

Just because there isn't a deduction, doesn't mean that it's not coming out of the employee's pocket. The company is just putting money into the pension instead of in the empolyee's pockets.

 

[MetalMover]

Please show us where there is a deduction on any IAMNPF member for that.
 
Let me give you a hint, you cant.

 So instead of the company giving the members $2 more an hour, they just contribute to the pension fund?
 
You are truly naive if you think that the company is generously funding a pension when they went bankrupt to terminate it. 
Like blue collar said, its going into the fund rather than the employees pockets..
It is still coming out of the members' pockets.

 

[FWAAA]

Just because there isn't a deduction, doesn't mean that it's not coming out of the employee's pocket. The company is just putting money into the pension instead of in the empolyee's pockets.

Exactly.
 
Why is that such a difficult concept for people?   

 

[MetalMover]

Exactly.
 
Why is that such a difficult concept for people?   

It is not difficult at all. Except for 700UW who defends the IAM as if his life depends on it. He thinks that everyone else is clueless and uneducated on these issues because we don't fall for his know-it-all nonsense.

 

[MetalMover]

Alright then let's throw a little question in here since you're so sure. Why is it then that every FSC I've spoken to from airlines that threw there obligations on the PBGC tell me that the amount they're going to draw per month is substantially less than what they were supposed to receive prior to that happening?

You are correct, but remember the older you were or are when the plan is terminated, the more you receive.