AMFA......read on

[ThirdSeatHero]

Certain IAM members did, others didnt.
 
That was all orchestrated by Bobby DePace, the PDGC of 143 at the time.
 
And I am not obligated to answer either, now am I?
 
I told you and others I dont agree with how 143 handled it at all, I would never cross a picket line nor perform work previously done by another bargaining unit.
 
I saw many pilots, fas, CSAs, and supervisors cleaning planes during our 30 day cooling off period at US back in 9/1992.
 
And filed many grievances against it.
 
Is it right for Delle to send a letter to NW telling them to take more from IAM represented employees so his members can give less concessions?
 
And then have the audacity to sent the IAM a letter asking for help.

 
Fair enough.
 

Why didnt AMFA's sister union the PFAA not honor the strike?
 

 
First off PFAA is not AMFAs "sister union". That was a propaganda moniker manufactured by the IAM because PFAA used McCormicks group. As to why they didn't support the strike, it is my understanding that they took a vote internally on supporting AMFA and it was narrowly defeated. While I do not like the outcome, the membership spoke and must bare the same stigma as the other unions that crossed the line.
 

How did AMFA not know what NW was planning, it wasnt a secret?
 

 
Where did you get the idea they didn't know?  Until they were released, what could they do?
 

And why did AMFA go on strike with NO strike fund?
 

 
This is and has always been a Red herring argument - No strike fund has won a strike - Unions that have strike funds pay so little in the event of a strike that for most it is more financially beneficial to seek part time work than it is to walk the line to qualify for strike benefits.  Personally I wish it wasn't so but that is the reality. As to AMFA specifically, we(UAL) all knew going into AMFA that there wasn't a strike fund so once again we see the will of the majority, further- if the current membership in AMFA wanted to establish a strike fund, they are fully empowered to do so.  As for the strike at NWA - the membership voted to strike knowing full well they had no strike fund, they obviously thought the situation was so onerous they had no other choice.

 

Is it right for Delle to send a letter to NW telling them to take more from IAM represented employees so his members can give less concessions?
 
And then have the audacity to sent the IAM a letter asking for help.
 

 
As to the letter, it is my understanding it didn't mention the IAM specifically just that it asked NWA to look elsewhere for concessions - if you have proof to the contrary simply post it and I'll revisit my answer.
 
As to the second point - I don't care if it is true and Delle was screaming it on live TV - when a picket line goes up - YOU DO NOT CROSS - PERIOD - NO EXCEPTIONS
 
I cannot stand the teamsters I will move against them whenever possible but if they put up a picket line I WILL NOT CROSS IT 
 
There will always be union politics/rivalries but when those issues are put above the labor movement itself. it does nothing but damage us all.
 
Just consider how much better we might all be if no one had crossed AMFAs picket line - No 1 union is the labor movement, we're all part of the whole.

 

[700UW]

This is what I could find, I will have to keep digging for the other letter, but I know it exists, you can ask Kevin.
 

 
O. V. Delle-Femine
National Director Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association
67 Water Street Suite 208A Laconia, NH 03246
 
O. V. Delle-Femine:
 
I am in receipt of your letter dated July 27, 2005, in which you requested that the IAM encourage our members to stand with AMFA. You have acknowledged in your letter that there are philosophical differences between our organizations and memberships.
 
I am surprised by your request in that since 1962 AMFA has preached that a Mechanic does not need the assistance of “unskilled” workers such as myself or many of the people I represent. When you urged the nearly 10,000 Northwest Mechanics (at the time) to join your craft organization in 1998 you declared their strength lies in their skill, not in the numbers of the Machinists Union. You must still believe this to be true because as recently as in a July 26, 2005 news article your Assistant National Director Steve MacFarlane said, “Strength in numbers doesn't necessarily mean strength.”
 
However, now when your organization has the first opportunity in its history to demonstrate this “strength in skill” dogma you preach, you turn to an organization that you have criticized and tried to belittle for more than 40 years, the IAM, for help. It is about time that AMFA recognizes that it cannot win a major labor dispute standing in isolation.
 
We could recite a litany of issues that have happened since AMFA’s inception that would only distract us from making appropriate decisions as they relate to the situation with Northwest Airlines.
 
However, we are concerned and currently investigating the many reports of harassment and intimidation by AMFA members against IAM members. These complaints include, but are not limited to, attacks on our female members in Building B in Minneapolis, property damage, and general harassment in the workplace such as the incidents that have happened in Detroit.
 
In addition, AMFA, as an institution, has proposed, and is actively advocating, that Northwest Airlines demand $150,000,000.00 more in concessions than the $107,000,000.00 that Northwest has requested from our membership.
 
AMFA negotiators are proud of this proposal and have been actively promoting it to your membership.
 
After more than 40 years, your philosophy continues to be that people working in classifications other than the licensed Mechanic should work for less pay so that the licensed Mechanic could be paid more. That philosophy is once again confirmed by AMFA, the institution, by proposing that the so-called unskilled be made to sacrifice more for the benefit of the licensed AMFA member.
 
Until your July 27th letter, it has been AMFA’s philosophy that the IAM, as an institution, has prevented the Mechanic classification from receiving the wages and benefits that they deserve because we, the IAM, were negotiating too much money for the so-called unskilled classifications, such as Stock Clerk, Equipment Service, Customer Service, Reservations, Clerical, etc. We, therefore, have refrained from any activity that could be construed as interfering with the internal affairs of the AMFA organization, as opposed to your organization’s history of attempting to raid our organization every time we are involved in difficult negotiations. We have, and I reiterate, refrained from any interference in your internal affairs.
 
However, in stark contrast, you will remember that in your last round of negotiations, AMFA, the Association, negotiated with Northwest Airlines to rob IAM members of work and ultimately jobs.
 
If your letter of July 27, 2005, was an attempt to “heal the wounds” that have been inflicted upon the IAM, our members, and the personal attacks that have been levied against IAM leadership, then we must inform you that mere words will not start the healing process. It is AMFA, the institution’s, deeds that will tell if you are truly serious about healing the wounds. Therefore, we demand:
 
1)            AMFA conduct an investigation into the allegations of intimidation of our members, especially our female members, and upon conclusion of such investigation take whatever action          is necessary under your Constitution and Bylaws to hold those responsible accountable.
 
2)            AMFA, as an institution, publicly apologize to IAM members who have been harmed by the AMFA rhetoric.
 
3)            AMFA, as an institution, and its negotiators denounce publicly, and withdraw in writing from the negotiation table, its proposal for IAM members to pay more in wage and benefit concessions than the carrier has requested.
In addition, we need answers to the following questions.
 
1)            Does AMFA, the institution, have a strike fund with sufficient assets to protect IAM members?
 
2)            Does the so-called AMFA “back to work agreement” provide for financial support to any IAM member that stands with AMFA?
 
3)            Does AMFA guarantee that no AMFA-represented member will come back to work while IAM members who have stood with AMFA have not been returned to work?
 
4)            Will the AMFA membership be allowed to vote whether or not to accept a contract to strike or will it be an elite few that make that decision?
 
IAM members will not be duped into standing with AMFA. AMFA has never honored an IAM picket line. To represent otherwise, as stated in your July 20th letter to all members on NWA property, is nothing more than an attempt to use trickery and deceit to persuade IAM members to stand with you.
 
The IAM is monitoring the situation very closely with ALPA representatives. The Machinists Union takes our moral and legal responsibility to protect our members seriously, and whatever action we recommend will be in the best interests of the Machinists Union membership at Northwest Airlines.
 
In your July 27th letter you requested that we encourage our members to stand with AMFA, thereby recognizing that whether or not someone stands with your organization is an individual choice. However, it would be very difficult for any IAM member to stand with your organization knowing full well that if AMFA wins, the IAM members lose, because AMFA, the institution, is fighting for IAM members to pay more in sacrifices than is currently proposed by Northwest Airlines.
 
Our members can rest assured that whatever action the IAM takes will be in the best interests of its members.
 
                                                                                Robert Roach, Jr. GENERAL VICE PRESIDENT
 

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Yes, I'd like to see the specific request from AMFA

 

[700UW]

Well I am going to find it sooner or later, probably later, got a couple of broken ribs from a boating mishap, so the meds will be kicking in soon, lol.
 
I might disagree with AMFA and the elitist attitude, but I would never ever cross a picket line and I would never perform struck work, I was one of the leaders when we went on strike in 1992 against US and basically was living at the union hall with little sleep.
 
And you do know that Shuttle Mechanics were AMFA, I think they were non-union at the time, but I cant remember but during our strike at US in 10/92 the Shuttle Mechanics scabbed on us at LGA, DCA and BOS.
 
Even to went to DTW to march and support the striking newspaper workers against Gannet.
 
And the Steelworkers had a long and big strike in Charlotte against Continental Tire, we supported them, and spent thousands to make sure they and their families had good for the holidays and presents for their children for X-Mas and Hanukkah.
 
I am a trade unionist through and through, but I dont agree with one group believing they are better than another when we are all union brothers and sisters.
 
And it is actually nice to be able to have a civil conversation with you, as others cant do it.
 
They belittle you and think you arent capable of being a knowledgeable person as I am not an A&P.  And I have repeated it over and over that one's classification has nothing to do with one's education, knowledge, skill level and experience.

 

[Kev3188]

My question concerning AMFA is, surely they knew NW airlines, had a fly by night school out west ,giving away A&P tickets to anyone with a heartbeat, who would cross the picket line when need be.
Wouldn't it have been better for the amt's to have some kind of work slow down vs. a strike?

That's actually a very good question. Based on my experience, I think they wanted to prove (for lack of a better term) that they were the absolute professionals they wanted to they company to see them as.
Unfortunately, the company couldn't have cared less...

You may have seen me write elsewhere about labor playing by rules we never agreed to. This is a prime example. JMHO. Same story with abiding by the MAC's (and other airports) decisions to have them set p picket lines out in Neverland...
 
 

Parking and pushing planes didn't break AMFA, it was the other unions crossing the picket lines that did. They all have a hand in it. The IAM sticks out the most though, because they did some of what was AMFA's work, and wrote a letter saying that they wouldn't be respecting the strike. The same union that used to represent the mechanics turned their back on them- and labor as a whole- with their actions during that strike.

I think that given the bad blood between the two, the IAM was also an easier target than, say, the TWU or PFAA. And no one was gonna call out ATSA or NAMA, ya know?
 
 

The work was being done by more ESEs at NW than AMFA before the strike.
 
With the CBA imposition the language was removed from M&R.
 
But once again, no ESEs fixed planes, no ESEs overhauled planes, no ESEs overhauled components, no ESEs, performed checks on planes, so please explain how doing receipt and dispatch and airstarts broke AMFA?
 
The language was already in the IAM ESE/NW CBA, so if they refused to do the work it would have been insubordination.

True.
 
 

I dont agree with how 143 and Depace handle the strike, Depace took it personal.

+1

Thankfully, he was voted out at the first opportunity.
 
 

 
 

 

I highlighted a portion of your post to drive home the point - THE IAM PERFORMED STRUCK WORK.
 
At the moment AMFA walked and NWA imposed it became struck work, ridiculous arguments trying to mitigate that change nothing.
 
As to your last point, the IAM had language protecting them against being forced to perform struck work, and I'm quite certain you know that.

They did... and then refused to fully enforce it, under the auspice of the strike not being "legal." I grieved it, and it was tossed ASAP.
 
 

First off PFAA is not AMFAs "sister union". That was a propaganda moniker manufactured by the IAM because PFAA used McCormicks group. As to why they didn't support the strike, it is my understanding that they took a vote internally on supporting AMFA and it was narrowly defeated.

IIRC, that's correct.
 
 

As to the second point - I don't care if it is true and Delle was screaming it on live TV - when a picket line goes up - YOU DO NOT CROSS - PERIOD - NO EXCEPTIONS
 
I cannot stand the teamsters I will move against them whenever possible but if they put up a picket line I WILL NOT CROSS IT

See my above post about where the lines were. Your point is valid- and I'm not trying to split hairs here- but in many cases there was no actual line to cross. In my city, we asked the AMT's to set up at the entrance to our air freight facility. The ramp all parked there, and no one would've crossed. Nor would any of the truckers that came through. We figured that this would have an immediate impact, and get some attention. The company banked on it too, staging some goons from Vance there for the first several days. But they refused, and instead steadfastly adhered to the Port's rules on where they could be, which wasn't a visible spot at all.
 

There will always be union politics/rivalries but when those issues are put above the labor movement itself. it does nothing but damage us all.
 
Just consider how much better we might all be if no one had crossed AMFAs picket line - No 1 union is the labor movement, we're all part of the whole.

Amen.

 

[700UW]

It goes back to PATCO, where ALL airline union's should have wildcatted immediately.
 
I wasnt born or just a baby when the big strike of the late 60s happened, thats why the NMB will never release more than one group or one airline into the 30 day cooling off period at the same time again.
 
How many AMTs voted for Reagan?
 
And how many AMTs know that under Reagan when Elizabeth Dole was Secretary of Transportation she changed FAR 145 to allow foreign MROs to overhaul US based airlines' planes?

 

[Vortilon]

It goes back to PATCO, where ALL airline union's should have wildcatted immediately.
 
I wasnt born or just a baby when the big strike of the late 60s happened, thats why the NMB will never release more than one group or one airline into the 30 day cooling off period at the same time again.
 
How many AMTs voted for Reagan?
 
And how many AMTs know that under Reagan when Elizabeth Dole was Secretary of Transportation she changed FAR 145 to allow foreign MROs to overhaul US based airlines' pl
 
Funny thing about your last statement there.  First off Elizabeth Dole was gone by the time that change occurred - not that it makes any difference. Secondly, I don't recall any of the large "one size fits all" unions putting up any kind of fight to prevent this change to FAR 145.  Were they too busy pushing their politically correct agendas - while forgoing the best interests of their dues paying members?  Why didn't the all inclusive, catch all, unions try to stop the change?  My guess, cause it didn't benefit enough of the membership.  You know, the usual, screw the AMTs - right....   Take a good look at that lame TA the IAM is pushing off on the US Air AMTs.  Makes me sick.

 

[Bob Owens]

It goes back to PATCO, where ALL airline union's should have wildcatted immediately.
 
I wasnt born or just a baby when the big strike of the late 60s happened, thats why the NMB will never release more than one group or one airline into the 30 day cooling off period at the same time again.
 
How many AMTs voted for Reagan?
 
And how many AMTs know that under Reagan when Elizabeth Dole was Secretary of Transportation she changed FAR 145 to allow foreign MROs to overhaul US based airlines' planes?

You were a baby in 1966? And you are already retired? Good gig if you can get it I guess.
 
Yes we should have supported PATCO, but we didn't.  
 
What about fighting for equal rights for airline unions in the here and now? What about fighting to correct the court decision to exclude Airlines from 1167 of the bankruptcy code yet then claim that 1113 and the RLA prohibit us from striking and forces Airline unions, and only airline unions, to accept whatever deal the carrier decides they want?
 
PATCO is ancient history, this injustice is current and has gone unchallenged by the Labor movement. Some Pilots tried but went pretty much unsupported and the AFL-CIO has done nothing to educate the workers what this means. Instead they are focusing on how the Supreme Court just allowed Corporations to have a Religion (which should be alarming to all "real people' not just Unionists) but in the meantime the fact that they have segregated Airline Unions and designated second class status upon them is still a dirty little secret. 
 
30 years from now will you be sitting back saying that we should have fought for equal rights after they extend this to all Unions because we didn't challenge it here??  

 

[700UW]

I dont claim, I guess you have forgotten the appeals court ruled against the AFA in the regards to striking once their CBA was abrogated?

 

[AANOTOK]

Ok, so today is August 1st, 2014. When will you guys submit the signed cards and have a vote??

 

[1AA]

When the committee has enough cards and after the one year lockout. The alliance vote if there is going to be one may move filing dates around. The organizers I am told are working with the USAir guys because they need to make sure if the SCS is in effect then USAir is included. On the long term side both sides are locked into a contract until 2017.
If you are inpatient then may I suggest you work on getting cards signed. This is a we effort not a them. We need to help ourselves in getting cards signed. Search out a AMFA organizer at your station and lend a hand. We only have ourselves to blame if we just sit back and do nothing but complain about the TWU and the Alliance.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Ok, so today is August 1st, 2014. When will you guys submit the signed cards and have a vote??

 
 
AANOTOK
 
Now that we are into the Month of Aug. many like yourself will be asking the same thing.
 
When is AMFA going to file for an election here at AA, the answer to that is when sufficiant amount of cards
are collected and accounted for so that there will be no scamming by the NMB/AA with the number of elegible employees.
 
Due to the recent filings by other class and crafts here at AA the NMB has determined that we are a single transportation group.
 
So what does that mean? Well that will require us to have cards from the USAir guys as well. We did start collecting cards from them the same time
we started here at AA. Did we do well in the beginning? "NO" but now that they have finished with the contract there cards are being signed.
At what rate that is a question you should ask the leader of the Organizing committee.
 
If there is a failure this time it will not be the fault of the committe it will be on those who continue not to sign cards.
Most have just quit beleiving that it will happen, the Title 2 guys still have not come on board to sign cards.
They still beleive what the TWU/IBT told them that AMFA does not want them, which is false.
 
Everyone still is expecting the organizers to do it all but why haven't the rest of the class and craft mechanics joined in to insure
we get cards. This is for our class and craft and the future for us all isn't it?
 
 
For all of you that read this why haven't you stepped up and asked your fellow mechanics if they signed and if not to sign so we can
end the TWU's reign here at AA. Don't just sit back and wait until it's too late.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

 
 
Everyone still is expecting the organizers to do it all but why haven't the rest of the class and craft mechanics joined in to insure
we get cards. This is for our class and craft and the future for us all isn't it?
 
 
For all of you that read this why haven't you stepped up and asked your fellow mechanics if they signed and if not to sign so we can
end the TWU's reign here at AA. Don't just sit back and wait until it's too late.

I can tell you that I have asked my fellow mechanics here in Tulsa to sign cards.  I have encountered so much complacency that it amazes me.  On many occasions the person will admit they are not happy with how the TWU has represented them but they don't want to sign a card.  I have even gone so far as to ask these people who don't seem to care if they will sign a card so we can at least have a vote so the majority can decide how to move forward.  If we could get the people who don't care one way or the other to sign a card we could have a vote tomorrow.  Just can't figure these guys out.  Got any ideas about a different approach?

 

[WeAAsles]

This is not a knock but I was wondering what you guys were thinking when during the IAM vs IBT election at Usairways, AMFA only received 7 write in votes? That could have been the biggest opportunity AMFA had to throw out as you guys like to call it one of those "Industrial Unions" and you have to admit that 7 was an embarrassment.

As OldGuy just related the reality is that people will complain about what they currently have but when it comes to putting pen to paper to move to replace it they may not be as dissatisfied as you might think? If they really were don't you think they would put their money where their mouth is?

 

 

[1AA]

Really? There was no amfa drive at the time. How many write ins did the twu get? How many write ins did the cwa, alpa, apa, afa or any other union get? That election was about getting rid of the IAM and make a change for the IBT. Why would they write in other choices and dilute the vote which would have been counterproductive? Diverting the interest was what happened here at AA when the IBT showed up and made a play for us. It diverted interest to three groups. We need to stay focused on one goal. Remove the twu and support amfa for the M&E. If not then we will have gained nothing.