Amfa Fails To Get Election At Aa

[twuer]

No Raptor, your the only one I have heard that's giving up the right to fight. Everyone else I know personally is ready to go to round two. Incensed to say the least. Driven more than ever to continue the fight.

If you think the twu is going to fight for mechanics in 2009 you need to let cio have his CRACK PIPE back. All of the AMFA organizers sacrificed much during this card drive, some more than others. Why do you want to give up now?

Here is something for you to think about Raptor; If the NMB appeal fails, don't come back to the AMFA fighters next year and say you were on our side when AMFA files again. We won't hear you.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!

Good attitude Hackman. . . .throw one of your own to the curb because you don't like what he says or thinks for that matter. But hey, I guess you are just following in the footsteps of your great organizer Dave Stewart. It's his way or the highway.

If amfa had a vote and won it, you would expect the same from the TWU supporters. Don't lie!! Because you know deep down that what Raptor says is correct. If we don't stand together and fight then we are at a disadvantage.

Amfa took advantage of a bad situation and ran with it, spitting out half-truths along the way. THAT sir is how you got so many cards signed. Like Raptor, I am tired of this fighting and carrying on. I have no doubt that some of you diehards will continue with another card drive. Why can't you do it quietly??????

 

[Raptor]

Good attitude Hackman. . . .throw one of your own to the curb because you don't like what he says or thinks for that matter. But hey, I guess you are just following in the footsteps of your great organizer Dave Stewart. It's his way or the highway.

If amfa had a vote and won it, you would expect the same from the TWU supporters. Don't lie!! Because you know deep down that what Raptor says is correct. If we don't stand together and fight then we are at a disadvantage.

Amfa took advantage of a bad situation and ran with it, spitting out half-truths along the way. THAT sir is how you got so many cards signed. Like Raptor, I am tired of this fighting and carrying on. I have no doubt that some of you diehards will continue with another card drive. Why can't you do it quietly??????

TWUer I agree with you that if there was a vote and AMFA won they would expect the TWU supporters to join them, if we don't come together before 2009 we will all lose, I understand that 2009 is a few years away but this coming together business is apt to be a slow process, I hope not to slow though for all of our sakes.

 

[Decision 2004]

Raptor was never a solid AMFA supporter to begin with!

He showed up due to the concessions only and never did grasp the idea of craft or class unionism.

He was elected TWU Shop Steward last year while claiming to be AMFA supporter.

He complained about our organizing strategies from the day he arrived in our camp, was considered a loose cannon by most, and organizers I know will never miss the fact that he left. McCoy threatened me on many occasion with physical attacks that resemble what actually happened with Les Howard, Kevin Thompson, and John McDonald in the TWU Parking Lot. He really does have the TWU mental state and should fit in well with them.

That's right Dan McCoy never came to understand craft unionism, he simply wanted to send the TWU a message about his disdain for placing his personal finances near Bankruptcy. He has never shown a caring for others around him, simply an "I AM" generation go getter, he is unable to control his anger, and a constant complainer. This man is incapable of the required patience and perserverance to work hard and wait for AMFA.

We have had others follow the RAPTOR trail, only to suffer more concessions at the hand of the TWU at a later date. I know, I am a living example of a person who supported the TWU on pure emotion and never did grasp the Craft Union concept until after 15 years of AA employment and three trips to the TWU Concession Bargaining Table.

There is no need in talking logic with Dan, he is a pure emotional basket case, and until his anger drives him away from the TWU, the ideas of AMFA will never be within his emotional needs again, nothing we say will bring this man to support Craft Unionism because he doesn't even understand or grasp the concept.

Just as with others who arrived and left for the wrong reasons, the AMFA drive will move forward with or without Dan McCoy. Trying to convince this man with logic the reasons we contimue the AMFA drive is a hopeless waste of your time. He doesn't understand logic, he only understands emotion!

Nobody on either side of this debate should place much merit on which ship Dan is on today, real TWU advocates know this to be true, just a AMFA diehards also know the same.

Of course the TWU will gladly use Dan and his "I AM NO WITH the TWU" postings and never admit the truth about his emotional flaws.

 

[Decision 2004]

If amfa had a vote and won it, you would expect the same from the TWU supporters. Don't lie!! Because you know deep down that what Raptor says is correct. If we don't stand together and fight then we are at a disadvantage.

There is a damn BIG difference between having a VOTE and a WINNER compared to being denied an election using ghost from a failing airline (TWA) purchased from the Bankruptcy Court!

How can you even compare the two with a straight face and honest heart.

Of course we would expect TWU advocates to support AMFA if the election is held and AMFA wins. There is only one way to reach unification.

VOTE and everyone support the WINNER!

 

[local 12 proud]

ask the majority of line mechanics what they think about the twu, yea tulsa is proud to have them but we are basically split down the seam. most could care less if overhaul is contracted out, we are all loser's as long as the twu is our bargaining agent. the twu has managed to devide and destroy our class and craft and the company is chomping at the bit. GO AHEAD AND CELEBRATE, YOU HAVE WRITTEN YOUR OWN EPITAPH

 

[Checking it Out]

I believe the amfa organizers are the one's who is dividing the membership. All they have to do is organize and they could care less. They have no accountability.

It would be benificial if you would direct your efforts from within and promote unity!!!! Go to the meetings and voice your concerns and make suggestions or motions to change what you dont like. IF the majority vote for it than it will be adopted.

 

[Rusty]

IF the majority vote for it than it will be adopted.

What makes us believe your organization would not rig a vote at the hall for anything??? The twu/AA is trying to rig the outcome of a pending election. Why would you suddenly change???

 

[Checking it Out]

Please show us where the TWU rigged anything?

Please explain where The TWU had any part in these decisions?
TWU does not set guidelines for the NMB and no one will be changing title groups.

NMB ruling; United Airlines, 22NMB 12 (1994), United Airlines, 28 NMB 533 (2001), and American West Airlines, 22 NMB 12 (1994), to support its contention that employees whose predominant function is cabin or lavatory service are part of the Mechanic and Related Employees craft and class.

“American states that it erroneously omitted these individuals from the listâ€￾

Therefore, the 1167 names on Attachment O will be added to the list.

 

[Raptor]

Raptor was never a solid AMFA supporter to begin with!

He showed up due to the concessions only and never did grasp the idea of craft or class unionism.

He was elected TWU Shop Steward last year while claiming to be AMFA supporter.

He complained about our organizing strategies from the day he arrived in our camp, was considered a loose cannon by most, and organizers I know will never miss the fact that he left. McCoy threatened me on many occasion with physical attacks that resemble what actually happened with Les Howard, Kevin Thompson, and John McDonald in the TWU Parking Lot. He really does have the TWU mental state and should fit in well with them.

That's right Dan McCoy never came to understand craft unionism, he simply wanted to send the TWU a message about his disdain for placing his personal finances near Bankruptcy. He has never shown a caring for others around him, simply an "I AM" generation go getter, he is unable to control his anger, and a constant complainer. This man is incapable of the required patience and perserverance to work hard and wait for AMFA.

We have had others follow the RAPTOR trail, only to suffer more concessions at the hand of the TWU at a later date. I know, I am a living example of a person who supported the TWU on pure emotion and never did grasp the Craft Union concept until after 15 years of AA employment and three trips to the TWU Concession Bargaining Table.

There is no need in talking logic with Dan, he is a pure emotional basket case, and until his anger drives him away from the TWU, the ideas of AMFA will never be within his emotional needs again, nothing we say will bring this man to support Craft Unionism because he doesn't even understand or grasp the concept.

Just as with others who arrived and left for the wrong reasons, the AMFA drive will move forward with or without Dan McCoy. Trying to convince this man with logic the reasons we contimue the AMFA drive is a hopeless waste of your time. He doesn't understand logic, he only understands emotion!

Nobody on either side of this debate should place much merit on which ship Dan is on today, real TWU advocates know this to be true, just a AMFA diehards also know the same.

Of course the TWU will gladly use Dan and his "I AM NO WITH the TWU" postings and never admit the truth about his emotional flaws.

Well Dave you are entitled to your opinion wrong as it is, You allways seem to think that you know what everyone else is thinking and what they are about but unfortunatly you are allways wrong, fact is we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect anyone who has an opinion of course opinions are not fact they are just one persons views, many people have rather course opinions of Dave Stewart but there is one thing that I am sure of neither Dave Stewart or Dan McCoy really give a damn what anyone thinks of them or their thoughts and that is Ok.

I would suggest that trying to convince Dave Stewart of anything would be a total waste of time as well Dave Stewart and Dan McCoy have virtually nothing in common but there is one thing that I think both do have in common and that is both know exactly what they believe in and no one is going to manipulate them into believing something that they know is wrong.
As far as emotion goes I don't believe I have ever ran into someone who was not emotional at one time or another including Dave Stewart an unemotional person would be a very boring person, the kind of person AA wants Robot people, but hey who wants to live in an unemotional robot world not me brother

Dave is a true AMFA diehard one with officer visions in his head, to bad he is one of the reasons that many are afraid to sign a card, I would not want him to be an officer in my local but that is just my opinion
Knock yourself out Davey boy but if you really wanted to help AMFA you would chill out a little and get a life
AMFA would be better off with you on the TWU side of the fence
That is the only Logical thing for you to do for them.

Can't we all just get along.
There will be a hand joining at big splash at 2:00 we will all be singing coombyah Dave will be the pivot man so please come and join in also we will be singing peace on Earth and good will to all men.

Man am I glad this battle is over let's all go and have a free beer at the friendly Tavern that one Eboard canidate is buying

 

[Bob Owens]

Raptor, Their are a lot of emotions floating around. It will take a few weeks for it all to settle in. In my area we have already discussed this issue and many have indicated they gave amfa their last oppurtunity and will work to improve the TWU. The contract talks will be looked at in 2006. The TWU convention is coming up next year. And we have excess hanger space that needs to be filled. Together we can improve all 3 areas.

In 2006 we have "openers. What exactly does that mean? It means they have to agree to talk, not come to a new agreement but to talk about a new agreement, there is no means to force things to a head.

We have weak language like that all through our contract. Like the company has to talk to the union before they contract out our work. The company has to talk before they ship more work to overseas AA facilities etc.

Last opurtunity for AMFA? Work to improve the TWU? Tell us what do you think needs improving and how do you expect to go about making those improvements?

So tell us of your plans for the Convention. What exactly will you be looking to change?

Nothing will change, maybe a few new faces, if some of the old ones even live that long, but the process and the system that excludes the membership from decision making will remain intact.

 

[Raptor]

In 2006 we have "openers. What exactly does that mean? It means they have to agree to talk, not come to a new agreement but to talk about a new agreement, there is no means to force things to a head.

We have weak language like that all through our contract. Like the company has to talk to the union before they contract out our work. The company has to talk before they ship more work to overseas AA facilities etc.

Last opurtunity for AMFA? Work to improve the TWU? Tell us what do you think needs improving and how do you expect to go about making those improvements?

So tell us of your plans for the Convention. What exactly will you be looking to change?

Nothing will change, maybe a few new faces, if some of the old ones even live that long, but the process and the system that excludes the membership from decision making will remain intact.

Bob everyone knows there will not be a new contract until 2009 no matter what Union is on the property, we can not get a good contract until we have the power to get into the company's pocket with a strike.
AA does not do anything out of the kindness of their heart, they have no heart.
We are stuck with this contract until 2009, Northwest's contract expires next year in this climate it will be interesting to see how they fare especially since Northwest is seeking concessions right now

I think that all of the Airlines are in for some serious changes in the next few years not just AA

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob everyone knows there will not be a new contract until 2009 no matter what Union is on the property, we can not get a good contract until we have the power to get into the company's pocket with a strike.
AA does not do anything out of the kindness of their heart, they have no heart.
We are stuck with this contract until 2009, Northwest's contract expires next year in this climate it will be interesting to see how they fare especially since Northwest is seeking concessions right now

I think that all of the Airlines are in for some serious changes in the next few years not just AA

Ill tell what Koziatek told me right after I first got elected "You will never see the TWU strike AA". He claimed that NY might be willing to strike but that there was no way that people in Tulsa were going to walk away from a $50,000 a year job. AA will always give just enough to get Tulsa on board.

The fact is that things will not get better with the TWU. For twenty years they have bargained away our living standards in return for more dues payers. Its a formula they will continue to use.

How can a union that is financially dependant on the company strike? The TWU accepts over $3.1 million a year from the company to do "union business". They pay the Presidents 40 hour paychecks. In Local 562, since our President is retired they pay 40 hours a week of lost time to who ever the President tells them to pay. A review of their financial reports would reflect that the local is not paying any lost time because the company is paying it. No doubt your local has similar deals.

The seperate locals were created in response to the last AMFA drive. Apparently the company was so desperate that they were willing to pay out these funds to help keep AMFA off the property. How does that make you feel? Do you really think that the company and the TWU are doing all this for your best interests? Do you really think that there is anything that you can do, that has not been tried, to change things within the TWU?

 

[Raptor]

Ill tell what Koziatek told me right after I first got elected "You will never see the TWU strike AA". He claimed that NY might be willing to strike but that there was no way that people in Tulsa were going to walk away from a $50,000 a year job. AA will always give just enough to get Tulsa on board.

The fact is that things will not get better with the TWU. For twenty years they have bargained away our living standards in return for more dues payers. Its a formula they will continue to use.

How can a union that is financially dependant on the company strike? The TWU accepts over $3.1 million a year from the company to do "union business". They pay the Presidents 40 hour paychecks. In Local 562, since our President is retired they pay 40 hours a week of lost time to who ever the President tells them to pay. A review of their financial reports would reflect that the local is not paying any lost time because the company is paying it. No doubt your local has similar deals.

The seperate locals were created in response to the last AMFA drive. Apparently the company was so desperate that they were willing to pay out these funds to help keep AMFA off the property. How does that make you feel? Do you really think that the company and the TWU are doing all this for your best interests? Do you really think that there is anything that you can do, that has not been tried, to change things within the TWU?

Bob if you think that the people in Tulsa would not be willing to strike a $50,000 a year job ( and you may be right I don't know ) then it does not matter what Union we have on the property we will never get a good contract, I hope you are wrong about that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob if you think that the people in Tulsa would not be willing to strike a $50,000 a year job ( and you may be right I don't know ) then it does not matter what Union we have on the property we will never get a good contract, I hope you are wrong about that.

That is what Koziatek claimed, with Little nodding along. My response was that if that was true, that they would not be willing to strike for improvements then it was his fault as the leader of the TWU. That given the right leadership Tulsans are no different than New Yorkers and if the injustice was made clear to them that they would be willing to fight like anyone else.

I'll admit that at times my basic faith in that has been tested but at the core I believe it to be true, I believe that the majority in Tulsa are decent honorable people willing to do the right thing but they, like everyone else, are waiting for a real leader to step up to the plate. The sad part is that the structure of the TWU will never let that happen.

 

[Raptor]

Bob you have been at AA for many years like myself you have been an officer in the TWU, AMFA has had drives at AA for the last 15 years this is the first year that you have supported AMFA can you really wonder why some are willing to give the TWU another chance with your history on this ? :unsure:
I am not critisizing you Bob as I have virtually the same history as you do, and this was my first year as an AMFA supporter as well, I am just asking a question. OK