Amfa Continues Downward Spiral

[Decision 2004]

No, we wanted the work but were unwilling to take the pay cuts that you scabs do to keep it.

B) UT

[post="238984"][/post]​

There is way to much truth in that statement. What I find amazing is that the cultist cannot see that they (TWU) lead the industry in pay and benefit cuts, and now they ridicule UAL/AMFA Mechanics for having to match the lowest average pay at the largest carrier. We used to whipsaw back and forth with upward momentum, and the TWU reveresed that trend to a race to the bottom. And they did so "without further ratification.

The TWU has the sheep so spell bound they cannot see the truth.

 

[seed]

And the answer to this dilemna is what? Keep informing TWU members of their bad decisions? Keep harping on AMFA's inability to be the "mechanic muscle" they so wanted to portray? I think not.

 

[UAL_TECH]

And the answer to this dilemna is what?  Keep informing TWU members of their bad decisions? Keep harping on AMFA's inability to be the "mechanic muscle" they so wanted to portray?  I think not.

[post="239016"][/post]​

If you want to be a 'good seed' then you may want to be a little more 'center' than biased.

Keep harping on AMFA's inability to be the "mechanic muscle" they so wanted to portray?

What is your goal? Is this a statement that will bring us together?
Maybe your 'seed' isn't as fertile as you would attempt to make others a$$ume'.

UT

 

[seed]

UAL, I try to stay open minded in all of this. As stated before, I am not a TWU shirt wearing anti-AMFA swearing bible thumping maniac. I simply respond to items I guess that I should stay away from. I see members here that are heart set on the destruction of the TWU, and members that are loyal to the TWU. Both, I suppose, have valid reasoning.

My goal? I can't remember who to quote here, but it was stated "Always set attainable goals!". IF I had a wish, or goal, it would be to unify our members for "push" against the companies and the BK courts they are in bed with. But I can't even unify a handful of alias' here, so why bother?

I didn't realize I was attempting to make others assume my "seed" was fertile. If this is what you took in from my postings then I apologize, it was certainly not intentional. My fertility is the least of our profession's concern.

 

[UAL_TECH]

UAL, I try to stay open minded in all of this. As stated before, I am not a TWU shirt wearing anti-AMFA swearing bible thumping maniac. I simply respond to items I guess that I should stay away from. I see members here that are heart set on the destruction of the TWU, and members that are loyal to the TWU. Both, I suppose, have valid reasoning.

My goal? I can't remember who to quote here, but it was stated "Always set attainable goals!". IF I had a wish, or goal, it would be to unify our members for "push" against the companies and the BK courts they are in bed with. But I can't even unify a handful of alias' here, so why bother?

I didn't realize I was attempting to make others assume my "seed" was fertile. If this is what you took in from my postings then I apologize, it was certainly not intentional. My fertility is the least of our profession's concern.

[post="239029"][/post]​

If you would like to be a 'seed' then your message should be fertile as a dead seed cannot produce fruit. Yes, it is a metaphor but one that you adopted.

I am not in disagreement with the concept, but being a 'seed' and being a 'good seed' have different demands.

I, in my postings are a 'seed' whether they are good or not depend on the recipients (even if I was quoting from a religious book).

I try to be a 'seed' myself but sometimes I sow on rocks and in thickets where the seeds cannot grow to their full potential. I am too busy casting seeds to bother with the watering of the ones I have planted, so as I plant new seeds, I let the old plants die.

Am I a seed, good seed, or a weed?

UT

 

[scorpion]

Name: "Tex" of the TWU
Email:
Employer: AA
Station: DFW
Date: Wednesday January 12, 2005
Time: 08:22:03 PM
Comments
This is picture of a United Airlines 777 that we are doing the return to leaser check, the company that owns the airplane contracted AA and negotiated the contract for the check. I don't think they wanted AMFA mechanics to do the work. Hey United mechanics what happened to "full pay till the last day" ? Seems you softened your position once again. What a bargaining powerhouse!!! The TWU keeping its members employed!

[post="238975"][/post]​

They don't give a rats as$ who does the work as long as its cheap! All this gloating about Uniteds tentative concessionary deal is enough to make me puke. The twu is spreading a concessionary virus throughout the industry and now their bragging about who is falling victim to the disease they started.

 

[AMFAMAN]

They don't give a rats as$ who does the work as long as its cheap! All this gloating about Uniteds tentative concessionary deal is enough to make me puke. The twu is spreading a concessionary virus throughout the industry and now their bragging about who is falling victim to the disease they started.

[post="239115"][/post]​

That is certainly true about the so-called unionists who work for the twu. They are nothing but management wanna-bees and even some become management. Just like the logo "team twu," another management concept, "team."

 

[Hackman]

UAL, I try to stay open minded in all of this. As stated before, I am not a TWU shirt wearing anti-AMFA swearing bible thumping maniac. I simply respond to items I guess that I should stay away from. I see members here that are heart set on the destruction of the TWU, and members that are loyal to the TWU. Both, I suppose, have valid reasoning.

My goal? I can't remember who to quote here, but it was stated "Always set attainable goals!". IF I had a wish, or goal, it would be to unify our members for "push" against the companies and the BK courts they are in bed with. But I can't even unify a handful of alias' here, so why bother?

I didn't realize I was attempting to make others assume my "seed" was fertile. If this is what you took in from my postings then I apologize, it was certainly not intentional. My fertility is the least of our profession's concern.

[post="239029"][/post]​

Seed, why are you here arguing with mechanics? Not to degrade you, its not my intent, but are you not a stock clerk in MCIE? Why are you concerned what AMFA does or does not do? You will not be voting in the representational vote between AMFA and the twu this fall....correct? Like I have told several stock clerks and rampers in the past; We appreciate your concern.... really, the mechanics desire to leave the twu nightmare behind is our decision, not yours.....your not a member of our class and craft. Therefore, if you want to stay with the twu, they will be all yours. You will then be in "control"....enjoy. Do not tell us what union we should be in. Very simple, your not in our profession, this statement isn't meant to be "elitist" as twu blind like to call it, just a matter of truth. The same as with pilots and flight attendants.

Why is the "destruction" of the twu determined by the Mechanic and Related departing? I keep hearing this absurd statement by twu zealots. Its because the majority does not and will not buy into the Do-little dictatorship? (i.e.- constant lies, corruption, and unaccountability). Did the AA Flight Attendants "destroy" the twu when they left in 1974? Well, the twu are still here for the sellouts after all these years!!!!. They have however included many more members under many classifications since then; bartenders, waiters, OSM's.....too many to name here. Anyone that will pay dues monies. The twu International has plenty of cash to pay those six figure salaries, buy hundreds of thousands in vehicles yearly, and still have a nice soft retirement for the International rats. Not to mention give themselves a sweet raise while the membership takes paycuts at AA. I am sure after the AA M@R dumps the twu, they will find some hapless group of suckers to replace our dues flow to the twu coffers.

 

[James T. Kirk]

Name: You better vote
Email: No legal eagle but the
Employer: facts are the facts
Station: UAL
Date: Sunday January 16, 2005
Time: 0857 AM


Comments
To the Cleaners, fuelers, Computer techs at UAL:
If I were in your position I would make sure that I voted on the proposal that is giving your jobs away. If you did not vote in the election to bring AMFA in as your bargaining agent you are reaping the rewards. It is not to late to try to mitigate your loses. The AMFA leaders and organizers have never made any bones about the fact that they do not want to represent any other workers but MECHANICS. They have gone to the Mediation Board and argued about have so called non-skilled workers in the craft and class. Their history is clear. Now they have put the lives of you and your family on the line to preserve the A&P mechanic jobs. You paid your dues to AMFA to barging in good faith on your behalf. Did they? You have a legal right to this. If I were in your situation, I would be looking at class action suite against the AMFA national and your UAL AMFA leadership for Duty of fair representation (DFR). Case in point. http://reports.fja.gc.ca/fc/src/shtml/2001...01fc28686.shtml Labor Relations -- Duty of fair representation -- VIA Rail, having adopted cost-saving initiative of combining duties of engineers, conductors, seeking review of certification of two bargaining units, order merging them -- CIRB allowing merger, certifying engineers' union as bargaining agent following representation vote -- No agreement reached when existing collective agreements expired -- VIA attempting to impose crewing initiative unilaterally -- Parties reaching tentative agreement, including Crew Consist Adjustment Agreement -- Board finding union failed to fulfill duty of fair representation -- Interests of engineers preferred to those of conductors -- Remedial order requiring VIA Rail, union reopen negotiations -- Appropriate standard of review of Board's interpretation of Canada Labour Code, s. 37 patent unreasonableness -- Unions having duty of fair representation after expiry of collective agreement. Understanding that this took place in Canada not here in the US may seem problematic. The theory and principal of law remains the same regardless of borders. In essence, DFR is DFR. If you do not vote and vote no and a class action law suite is filed AMFA my produce the records from the electronic balloting to exclude you from the class. Find a good Labor Lawyer and peruse this.
Good luck

 

[AMFAMAN]

KIrky,

Your sh*t house lawyer friend is wrong again about Canadian law being the same as US law. Tell Art, that is most likely why he sucks as a lawyer.

 

[seed]

Hackman, as I stated previously when asked the same question about my concern, I am a furloughed A&P mechanic. I accepted this position to continue my health benefits until I can find another job. After reading all the negativity and untrust here I do find myself asking the same question, "why should I care?". I hope the 5 or 6 of the posters here do not represent the masses at AA, AMFA, or the TWU. No wonder our profession is being taken advantage of. I wonder if Delle and Jim are being paid to keep the floor disrupted while the company cuts our throats.

Very simple, your not in our profession

I believe I'm not in your league, and thankfully so. This is the 3rd major airline I have worked and I have also turned wrenches at 2 FBO's. I question, as you, why anyone would support AMFA that is not a mechanic. Please continue to keep me out of your profession, I'd rather stay in aircraft maintenance.

 

[Bob Owens]

Name: You better vote
Email: No legal eagle but the
Employer: facts are the facts
Station: UAL
Date: Sunday January 16, 2005
Time: 0857 AM
Comments
To the Cleaners, fuelers, Computer techs at UAL:
. Now they have put the lives of you and your family on the line to preserve the A&P mechanic jobs. You paid your dues to AMFA to barging in good faith on your behalf. Did they? You have a legal right to this. If I were in your situation, I would be looking at class action suite against the AMFA national and your UAL AMFA leadership for Duty of fair representation (DFR). Case in point. http://reports.fja.gc.ca/fc/src/shtml/2001...01fc28686.shtml Labor Relations -- Duty of fair representation -- VIA Rail, having adopted cost-saving initiative of combining duties of engineers, conductors, seeking review of certification of two bargaining units, order merging them -- CIRB allowing merger, certifying engineers' union as bargaining agent following representation vote -- No agreement reached when existing collective agreements expired -- VIA attempting to impose crewing initiative unilaterally -- Parties reaching tentative agreement, including Crew Consist Adjustment Agreement -- Board finding union failed to fulfill duty of fair representation -- Interests of engineers preferred to those of conductors -- Remedial order requiring VIA Rail, union reopen negotiations -- Appropriate standard of review of Board's interpretation of Canada Labour Code, s. 37 patent unreasonableness -- Unions having duty of fair representation after expiry of collective agreement. Understanding that this took place in Canada not here in the US may seem problematic. The theory and principal of law remains the same regardless of borders. In essence, DFR is DFR. If you do not vote and vote no and a class action law suite is filed AMFA my produce the records from the electronic balloting to exclude you from the class. Find a good Labor Lawyer and peruse this.
Good luck

[post="239619"][/post]​

Hey why didnt you give them a more recent and relevant case? One right here in the USA, in fact with the TWU. You know the one against the TWU International and Local 501 concerning the building cleaners that were dumped? I believe they all got full back pay on that one and it was only determined in the lasy couple of months.

 

[James T. Kirk]

Name: Lazarus
Email: 666
Employer: NWA
Station: looking out for you????
Date: Saturday January 15, 2005
Time: 05:23:39 PM


Comments
Here's a response to your posting, We voted for the 38% farm out cap remember, hence virtually all of (B)..side is gone and LMO has taken over 40-50% of ©..side! I hate to tell you but the folks on the street are just plain SCREWED!! I hope your not one of them....Simple conclusions say if you gave up 38%.of the work, you need 38% less employees, and we all know NWA has surpassed that (%) a long time ago...They beat our ass's on the last contract the destruction of B side cements the point that they know beyond the shadow of a doubt they wont be bringing the several thousand workers back at all!!!! Their lawyers and Richard Anderson are anything but stupid! ..This may also explain AMFA'S foot-dragging on this F-M.2 issue Why expose yourselves for the dumbass contract you gave to the mass's last time? AMFA also through the words of Mr. Young has so much admitted they don't really know the % of work lost to the 38% cap???LOL....no way to calculate it.....Where the hell do people think the cuts would be made?? LMO..not much to cut there! I guess it looks like (hanger maint)..and (shops)...RED RUDDER has gone on record as saying they want out of the maint business and in 3-4 years there will be little if any ((hanger maint) in MSP.. simply put the folks on the outside are permanently screwed and in a few years more of us will have to bite the bullet? Even with some type of major concessions, where would you put all the people still laid off © side ?? Again back to my first point we've lost this war, NWA is proceeding with their 2020 plan with the blessings of the state and MAC....We gotta quit crying over spilt milk and save what we've got!!!! That's (EXACTLY!!) what Jim Young said..(in a very)..(we deleted by moderator) shadowy way)..or don't shoot me Iam just the messenger....We essentially let (Gramps)..(DELL) drive the bus 3 years ago and he put the bastard in the ditch and rolled it...about 5000 employees died....humor in the face of death!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

IF I had a wish, or goal, it would be to unify our members for "push" against the companies and the BK courts they are in bed with.

[post="239029"][/post]​

Well in this case its a "menage et trios" because the unions are in the same bed.

Attainable goals you say? Ok, I agree.

Unify our members you say?

Well the TWU has worked for at least twenty years to ensure that it never happens.

Your IAM did not do what the TWU did.

The TWU not only isolated workgroups within the union by making sure that they could not freely move between classifications without losing seniority but they also freely encouraged and engaged in other policies that pitted the members against each other.

22 locals under one contract, have you ever seen anything like that in your life?Some Locals with 7000 members with others with 200.

They took work away from one classification and gave it to others, they had their Presidents tell their members to work harder because the company said that they would send the work to those stations where the work got done, even if it was a lie, like your STL brothers found out. A real union would not participate in pitting members against each other.

The separations between classifications are too deep to be overcome and besides we need unity on an industrywide basis, not just one company.

So what is attainable? Unifying the profession is attainable and it makes sense. It has certainly worked for the pilots.

The real debate is not TWU vs AMFA, or Little vs Delle. The debate centers around should we seek to unite across the entire industry or not?

The TWU does not feel that we need to be unified, their contracts prove that and the fact is that AFL-CIO affiliation prohibits trying to attempt it unless the leaders of other unions are willing to do it, and do you really think any of those guys are going to be willing to walk away from million$ in dues because its the right thing to do?

I tried getting the AFL-CIO to pressure the TWU, IAM and IBT to merge their ATDs into one union. I spoke directly to Sweeny but mostly to a guy from the AFL-CIO named Bill Ragen (who has since returned to the SEIU) and they favored this but said that under its current structure that they could do nothing. They did however encourage me to continue to push from within for such a merger.

I then wrote to Hall, Buffenbarger and Hoffa on this and had a running exchange of letters on this subject.

If you have been following what is going on in the labor movement there is a lot of pressure for change, however its not likely to be very successful without something extrordinary happening.

It certainly will not happen if airline workers continue to support unions like the TWU, IAM and IBT that are resisting structural changes and consolidation of the labor movement.

The TWU is solidly on the "no change is needed bandwagon". Despite what they claim, just look at the claimed results of the TWU survey where Little claimed that the members do not support structural changes. Instead Little claims that all the members need is "Communication, communication, communication".

Hardly, what they need is a union that can help them get "money, benifits and work rules".


The fact is that by not pushing for AMFA or the AGW you are supporting the Old Guard that believes in concessions for dues, dues to fund International salaries, perks and pensions.

Attainable goals. Read the TWU Constitution and all the court cases that TWU members have brought against the TWU. I would guess that no union has had as many lawsuits filed against it by their own members per capita than the TWU. You can not fix the TWU, your representatives are bound to an oath to the International, not the members. I've been to the TWU Convention. Its a travesty, Sonnys Party it was called. "Corrupt" is a pale definition. Members are totally excluded. They can not vote, nor is it even recorded how their "representation" voted. They are only given the result. I heard Presidents of Locals claim that the members do not have a right to know how they voted at the Convention because how they vote is personal-not when you are voting in behalf of other people its not! However this is the prevailing view of the TWU with a few exceptions, some of Local 100 and Local 556 (SWA Flight attendants).

You can not fix the TWU, and even if we did it would still not help the problems we face industrywide. Our affiliation with Casino Card dealers in Vegas, school bus drivers in Pennsylvania and NASA workers in Florida does nothing to imporove our ability to handle the challenges we face in this industry. The same goes for airline workers represented by the IAM or IBT. However if we were to unite industrywide under one union then we could finally address the problems we all face. The airlines have the ATA and Aircon, these organizations are specifically chartered to push forward the interests of their airline members and are not subordinate to any other industry. Airline workers ground workers have no such organizations. Instead we are all split up between subordinate division(ATDs) of many different unions, the majority having no special interest in our industry. In fact none of these AFL-CIO unions that represent ground workers are led by someone who ever worked in this industry.


Jim Littles summation of the survey that claimed that structural changes were not needed and that all the TWU needs to do is communicate more with the members should erase any hope you have for real change within the TWU, its unattainable. In effect he is saying that they have not done enough to convince us that concessions are the way to go, he is saying that the union is on the right path and all they need to do convince us of that.

AMFA offers us the ability to unify as a profession, no other union offers us that, and it is attainable.

 

[seed]

Bob, I do understand your desire for AMFA. I do not however see AMFA as being a key to preserving your job, my job, or any other mechanic's longevity in this industry.

AMFA has yet to prove they are anything other than a different union to bleed dues from us. AMFA is the same body of members they were when they were the IBT and the IAM, membership has not changed. The same membership is now accepting concessions as the wave of the future, of course, laying blame to others instead of taking a stand against the companies that demand them. Real easy to state that the TWU began the concession so AMFA has no other alternative but to follow. I have yet to read where AMFA has done anything accept to spend money in frivolous law suits, no floor action has been initiated by them, and they are tough group?

For argument's sake Bob, let's say AMFA has an edge over the TWU because it can oust it's elected officials cleanly. What did that do for the NWA negotiators when they were forced to rid themselves of the observers? NW people owned that AMFA group. They,NW, ridiculed the very constitution you proudly defend as our salvation to keeping our profession intact. Instead of reacting they filed a law suit.

Again Bob, I do not see the TWU as my knight in shining armour, however, I do not see where AMFA is lighting the contract world on fire. In fact, when they are not being punked, they are extending the same contracts they so badly wanted to rid themselves of ( ref. earlier reading where AMFA members stated they were "inheriting" the contracts of the IAM and the IBT).

The fact is that by not pushing for AMFA or the AGW you are supporting the Old Guard that believes in concessions for dues, dues to fund International salaries, perks and pensions.

Bob, I do not see you as one that would throw support towards a union you do not see as legitimate. Why then, do you expect me to? And again, as you and CIO and others continue this multi-year debate as to who's union is more deserving, our contracts are being abrogated, concessionary packages are being served to all unions, and we all lose.

I wish I held the answer or the means to repair this dilema but I do not.