Amfa Continues Downward Spiral

[Checking it Out]

Seed, Our dilemma we face is similar to the fate of the steel Industry, The ones who changed and adapted survived.

I believe the likes of Bob Owens will never be happy. They will be looking on the other side of the fence.

We are fighting for our livelyhoods, if we do not adapt to the coming changes we at AA will no longer be working. AA has made it clear in their time frame to be competitive by working smarter not by working cheaper.



Amfa The Downward Spiral Continues!

 

[Decision 2004]

We are fighting for our livelyhoods, if we do not adapt to the coming changes we at AA will no longer be working. AA has made it clear in their time frame to be competitive by working smarter not by working cheaper.
Amfa The Downward Spiral Continues!

[post="239816"][/post]​

Smarter not Cheaper?

That was before the TWU and Jim Little were allowed to decided how to come up with $620 Million in concessions.

Then all of the sudden working cheaper and over manned was top priority!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

cio, you wrote, "We are fighting for our livelyhoods, if we do not adapt to the coming changes we at AA will no longer be working. AA has made it clear in their time frame to be competitive by working smarter not by working cheaper."

You are so full of twu lies and #### it is funny.

You talk of adapting yet you fight the actions needed to adapt. We will not be working at AA if we remain in the twu. Cowards like yourself who double talk are the reason we face the obstacles in our path.

We are fighting for our livelyhoods but we face two fronts. Greedy aa management on one side and sell out anti-union cowards in the twu on the other.

If you intend to fight will you continue to do so with that bag of cowardice over your head? Or will you go into battle in clear day light for all to follow your lead?

Lastly, you say AA wants to work smarter not cheaper? Pull away from little's pipe for a second and ask the osm and over night cleaners how much they are making. Better yet, ask a real AMT every second Friday how much they are making. Don't bother looking at your check. Union officials make more than everyone.

 

[seed]

Ken, you stated we are fighting for our livlihoods. Where is the battlefront and who's in charge? I have yet to see any one union make a stand against the recent trend of concessions and abrigations. Are you privy to an actual fight?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I do understand your desire for AMFA. I do not however see AMFA as being a key to preserving your job, my job, or any other mechanic's longevity in this industry.

I see uniting the mechanics in one union as the way to preserve our careers. Only one union seeks to unite all the mechanics-AMFA.

AMFA has yet to prove they are anything other than a different union to bleed dues from us. AMFA is the same body of members they were when they were the IBT and the IAM, membership has not changed. The same membership is now accepting concessions as the wave of the future, of course, laying blame to others instead of taking a stand against the companies that demand them. Real easy to state that the TWU began the concession so AMFA has no other alternative but to follow.

Well we did not follow anybody, our concessioons surpassed everybody.

I have yet to read where AMFA has done anything accept to spend money in frivolous law suits, no floor action has been initiated by them, and they are tough group?

Well I guess you missed the fact that AMFA at NWA was the first mechanics group to be hit with a PEB since 1966. The mechanics at AA under the TWU has not fought since 1969.

For argument's sake Bob, let's say AMFA has an edge over the TWU because it can oust it's elected officials cleanly. What did that do for the NWA negotiators when they were forced to rid themselves of the observers?

What does one have to do with the other? What do either have to do with uniting all the mechanics under one union?

NW people owned that AMFA group. They,NW, ridiculed the very constitution you proudly defend as our salvation to keeping our profession intact. Instead of reacting they filed a law suit.

Thats more of a reaction than we have seen from the TWU since 1969.


Again Bob, I do not see the TWU as my knight in shining armour, however, I do not see where AMFA is lighting the contract world on fire.

Well I dont know where you were a few years back when AMFA did precisely that, mechanics saw the biggest increases ever, far more than other workers who did not have the benifit of unions that were competing for members instead of competing for companies.Once again you ignore the goal of uniting all the mechanics in one union. Of course AMFA will be limited as to what gains they can make when mechanics are in all these unions that agree to massive concessions. Hey why not try it, if you dont think its worked out you could always start a card drive for the TWU or some other union.

In fact, when they are not being punked, they are extending the same contracts they so badly wanted to rid themselves of ( ref. earlier reading where AMFA members stated they were "inheriting" the contracts of the IAM and the IBT).


Well when everyone else is opening up contracts to give massive concessions extending one is by far a better option.

Bob, I do not see you as one that would throw support towards a union you do not see as legitimate. Why then, do you expect me to?

Well what do feel makes a union legitimate?

And again, as you and CIO and others continue this multi-year debate as to who's union is more deserving, our contracts are being abrogated, concessionary packages are being served to all unions, and we all lose.

Well thats a pretty broad statement, to date AMFA has not agreed to concessions even though two years ago we gave massive concessions to a company that was not bankrupt. We gave more than the unions at the bankrupt companies gave!! Sure we all lose, part of the reason is that we are not united. When UAL announced that they would seek to have the judge abrogate labor agreements I sent out an E-mail saying that if they abrogate any agreement we all should walk off the job. Jim Little demanded that I retract that statement. So much for unity. If we had taken that position then do you think we would have been screwed like we were?

I wish I held the answer or the means to repair this dilema but I do not.

Well then why not seek an answer? Why do you feel that uniting all the aircaft mechanics is not a good idea? Try looking beyond the personalities, then tell me why you feel that mechanics should not be organized like the pilots, flight attendants, plumbers, electricians, construction workers and scores of other strong unionists who have unions that are focused specifically on their proffesion.

The fact is even you admit that what we have is not working, why not try something else?

 

[Bob Owens]

Seed, Our dilemma we face is similar to the fate of the steel Industry, The ones who changed and adapted survived.

I believe the likes of Bob Owens will never be happy. They will be looking on the other side of the fence.

We are fighting for our livelyhoods, if we do not adapt to the coming changes we at AA will no longer be working. AA has made it clear in their time frame to be competitive by working smarter not by working cheaper.
Amfa The Downward Spiral Continues!

[post="239816"][/post]​

More disinformation from the TWU.

First of all our "fates" are not similar.

The steel industry is in decline from foreign competition and declining productivity. in the end the unions representing steel workers settled for less workers at better pay.

The US steel industry has produced an ever shrinking portion of the steel this country consumes for years.



The overwhelming majority of Airline work has remained stateside. The industry is not suffering from destructive domestic competition, but the overall the trend for the industry is one of growth and increased productivity, conditions that usually foster better wages and benifits not worse.

The TWU if fighting to kill off other airlines so AA will grow and they will get more dues payers.

The goal of Capitalists is not to make us all work less (unemployed) it is to make us work for less.

Working smarter not cheaper, and how has that been displayed? Through pay and benifits cuts?

 

[seed]

Bob, it should not take joining AMFA or joining the TWU to unite all mechanics. We hurt our own agenda daily with this union strife. I do agree with you on the fact that we should have ALL walked with the abrogation threat at UAL.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken, you stated we are fighting for our livlihoods. Where is the battlefront and who's in charge? I have yet to see any one union make a stand against the recent trend of concessions and abrigations. Are you privy to an actual fight?

[post="239920"][/post]​

seed, the battlefront is at work. YOU are in charge. I am in charge. You haven't seen any one union take a stand against concessions and abrigations? I have. And it isn't the twu! I have seen the twu role over to keep their true masters, AA management, happy.

Am I privy to an actual fight? Yes I am. I am privy to the fight for all AMTs to join under one craft union. This is what's needed to be better prepared to fight.

If the iam threatened to strike the twu would rub their hands in gleeful delight of anticipated future dues.

If the twu threatened to strike, (ha, I had to laugh at that one), it would be only that, a threat.

When our profession is fractured it is impossible to get competeing unions to align themselves for the better of their members. It is against their code of greed.

AMFA is the only union interested in protecting our craft & profession. Once you realize this fact the sooner you will understand what is needed for AMTs to protect ourselves. You have stated that the arguement of which union is better is a distraction from our real fight. You are wrong on this point. Like I said, AMTs face a two front war... inept & greedy management on one side and inept & greedy industrial unions on the other.

 

[seed]

Ken, where and when did AMFA lead their members on a walk out, a real fight? That is the fight I am referring to, not one to swell their ranks and their dues revenue.

I hope someday I can state you were correct about AMFA, or that CIO was correct about the TWU. I hope to see some real union action which I will take part in. I find these debates of no real use. As stated before, you will not change CIO, nor he change your mind , nor either of you convince me we have any leadership willing to go to jail, willing to lead the a/c members on a walk out.

I am only one member, but my stance is consistant with many on the floor. We are tired of hearing who did what and when, who can do what when awakened. We want to get just a bit more aggressive in our posture, but it seems we are being subdued for some unknown reason. No one wants to hear this AMFA/TWU crap, we want to hear the company cry foul!

 

[cheetah]

seed,braniff.

 

[Hackman]

Ken, where and when did AMFA lead their members on a walk out, a real fight? That is the fight I am referring to, not one to swell their ranks and their dues revenue.

I hope someday I can state you were correct about AMFA, or that CIO was correct about the TWU. I hope to see some real union action which I will take part in. I find these debates of no real use. As stated before, you will not change CIO, nor he change your mind , nor either of you convince me we have any leadership willing to go to jail, willing to lead the a/c members on a walk out.

I am only one member, but my stance is consistant with many on the floor. We are tired of hearing who did what and when, who can do what when awakened. We want to get just a bit more aggressive in our posture, but it seems we are being subdued for some unknown reason. No one wants to hear this AMFA/TWU crap, we want to hear the company cry foul!

[post="239998"][/post]​

Also NWA during the PEB. AMFA instructed all members to load their toolboxes up and take them home. I helped my one of my friends unload his at home. They were in the 11th hour, and preparing to strike. I was in MSP at that time and have many friends there. I was in MSP when NWA airlines booted the worthless iam and they haven't looked back.

I still ask the question that no twu/iam zealot will answer, when is the iam or twu card drive starting at any carrier? The silence if deafening.......

I have no doubt if AMFA would not have negotiated the industry changing contract at NWA that the twu could not match, they would have walked! That, I have not a doubt.

When AMFA bends over for the man like the twu does every time, you will have every right to accuse them of being weak. I will then agree with you. When AMFA has to fight what the twu and iam have done to this profession, that's a tough road to travel. Every airline in this industry is now trying to match what the twu and Jim Do-little did to AA. Look at NWA current concession demands. Its almost a carbon copy of what the twu agreed to.

You'll never see the twu "get a bit more aggressive in our posture". Except against their own members, when they don't blindly follow them down the road to destruction.

 

[James T. Kirk]

Name: Critic
Email:
Employer:
Station:
Date: Tuesday January 18, 2005
Time: 07:41:56 PM


Comments
Name: Right coast
Delle didn't take 5 years to screw us at United like he did at NWA. He did it in less than 2. AMFA is now cramming this concessionary contract down our throats. Thanks to the deal UAL management cut with Delle and McCormick AMFA really needs these pay cuts, farm outs and pension give-a-ways to fly so they can collect their million dollar reward from the company. What kind of Union gets a reward from Management of 1,000,000 dollars to sell concessions and accepts? AMFA!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The first thing you need is a brain. If you vote "yes" the only person ramming the concessionary contract down your throat is YOU. Do you know the meaning of the word "NO"?

 

[Bob Owens]

seed,Jan 18 2005, 03:02 AM]
Ken, where and when did AMFA lead their members on a walk out, a real fight? That is the fight I am referring to, not one to swell their ranks and their dues revenue.

Look here.
http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/airline-strikes.html

When you figure in the amount on members AMFA has had or the number of years that they have represented workers then you will see that AMFA has the most militant track record in history, now you know why the Airlines do not want to see AMFA. The question is why dont mechanics in Tulsa and MCI?

I hope someday I can state you were correct about AMFA, or that CIO was correct about the TWU. I hope to see some real union action which I will take part in.

With the TWU it will never happen, so you better hope we get AMFA, soon!

I find these debates of no real use. As stated before, you will not change CIO, nor he change your mind , nor either of you convince me we have any leadership willing to go to jail, willing to lead the a/c members on a walk out.


I am only one member, but my stance is consistant with many on the floor. We are tired of hearing who did what and when, who can do what when awakened. We want to get just a bit more aggressive in our posture, but it seems we are being subdued for some unknown reason.

Because the TWU wants you that way. You rely on them for information and they will never do anything to threaten the cozy relationship they have with management.


No one wants to hear this AMFA/TWU crap, we want to hear the company cry foul!

First things first. Get AMFA in and the TWU out! We know that the TWU will do nothing, how much more do you need to see?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, it should not take joining AMFA or joining the TWU to unite all mechanics. We hurt our own agenda daily with this union strife.  I do agree with you on the fact that we should have ALL walked with the abrogation threat at UAL.

[post="239953"][/post]​

If you like I would send you a copy of the whole chain of e-mails. Little demanded that I retract the statement.

What will it take in order to convince you of what Little and the TWU/ATD are all about?

I strongly disagree that we dont need to organize in order to unite. Without organizing (in our case all joining AMFA) all you have is a mob without a clear objective or focus. Basically you are saying we dont need unions, that we could unite and stay together without any structure. Historically that has never happened with any group of people except for maybe brief uprisings that eventually failed.

 

[seed]

Basically, I am stating we shouldn't need unions. Our profession has been dealt deadly blows, WE SHOULD REACT!!.

Honest question: Do you think it is the TWU or the TWU membership that has become company friendly? Do you think TUL, the majority, would pack up their tool boxes if requested by the TWU, or AMFA? I mean really, let's face it, if Mr. Little stated "do not act in a militant way towards AA", and the membership wanted to, do you really think that would stop the membership? The membership is wishing the TWU stays low profile. Keep that paycheck coming every two weeks, no matter what!