Real tired
Veteran
One of the best posts I've read in a while. You get it.
I just wish more of my coworkers got it too. A few do, but not enough.
All you'd have to do was substitute "TWU" for "IAM" and it's the same situation here.
AMFA at AA- consolidated thread
- Thread starter TWU informer
- Start date
One of the best posts I've read in a while. You get it.
I just wish more of my coworkers got it too. A few do, but not enough.
All you'd have to do was substitute "TWU" for "IAM" and it's the same situation here.
Anomaly
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- Jun 2, 2012
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Well said Thomas Paine.
At the end of the day most of us felt much like you do in our last two elections at UA. We wanted something different, but really did not want the unknown questions and risks that are associated with change. We tried AMFA which turned out to be much worse. The philosophy was sound and is what sold us to vote for them and still to this day has our attention. Unfortunately, the association was never able to materialize what many of us thought would be the perfect union. I do not blame them as a union, in fact, for me, I wonder if it was my own fault for putting too high an expectation on any single group? AMFA preaches (and I was one to swallow the rhetoric freely) that the members have the right to choose anything they want. Unfortunately there are no limitations to what the members could decide, and we all decidede differently. The process and the idea simply failed.
This mantra, ended up being our downfall at UA. The simple fact is; we all had different ideologies of what perfect was. None of us could get along and it showed in the representation. We needed more, but foremost, and like you at AA, WE NEEDED A GOOD CONTRACT.
We all went to the Teamsters bent on several different outcomes. At the end of the day, in my utmost honest opinion, the UA mechanics overall are better off with the Teamsters as our representative union. Is it prefect? Of course not. Do we have complaints? Absolutely.
ARE WE BETTER OFF? Without a doubt, YES.
But who the fu*k am I? According to many on this board I am lying to you. To that I will provide the following.
Call the stations at UA yourself and ask them what they think? Ask them if there is an active campaign for amfa or any other union. Ask them if they are satisfied with the pay and benefits since becoming Teamsters. I have no doubt you will get a few complaints. I also truly believe you will get an honest answer from those mechanics who answer the phone.That answer will most likely be; Overall, we are better off with the Teamsters and there is no move to remove them.
AA and US... you could be better off too.
Call the stations and you will find out the truth on your own. The numbers provided are a single station number. If you question the providede number, call it and ask them for another number to other Lead desks or work areas. Find out for yourselves. UA mechanics are doing much better since our days with either the IAM or AMFA
SFO - 650-745-5819
ORD - 773-601-2466
DEN - 303-348-4765
SEA - 206-988-7189
PDX - 503-249-4214
HNL - 808-779-8665
LAX - 310-342-8869
IAD - 703-572-7886
JFK- 718-995-1384
Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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Why don't you address what GT posted?
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54253-teamster-representation-questions/page__st__84#entry1004035
The IBT and Outsourcing at UAL
During bankruptcy at UAL under AMFA there was language added to the contract to audit the company every year to make sure the company would not exceed the 20% outsourcing agreement. Fast forward to 2008 when the IBT became our union. The IBT lost the 20% outsourcing grievance but supposedly continued the audit process. At least that’s what they said. Fast forward again to the present. Under our new contract there would be an outsourcing committee organized with “appointed” committeemen that would meet with the company to review outsourcing.
I asked my local IBT officers about who was on the committee and have they met with the company. I asked for any updates on their meetings. I also asked about our 20% outsourcing audit that was supposedly in progress. I also asked about our B757′s being outsourced to AAR in Indianapolis and our B737′s to Mexico. The response?
The response by those IBT Airline Division officers were, we were not aware of the outsourcing of those aircraft and no response about who is on the “committee” and when or if they have met with the company. Also, they stated that after five years of IBT representation the 20% outsourcing audits are null and void and the audit company the IBT hired will now have to start over.
So long story short, the IBT has no idea how much work is outsourced and appears not to care. In fact they are ignoring the membership’s request for information on this issue.
Is this a union you want to lead you through bankruptcy and to fight against outsourcing? I would think not. Don’t make the same mistake we at UAL have made. Go Craft Union.
Go AMFA!
GT Davis, Denver Mechanic, Denmm
Thomas Paine
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- Sep 4, 2003
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Well the pilots have the ALPA and the Flight Attendants have the AFA, so there is no reason why the Mechanics couldn't have a viable craft orientated union as well.
Did AMFA fail? In some cases yes, does that mean that the concept and idea is flawed? Or were the failures driven by the circumstances at the time along with overwhelming hostility on multiple fronts? If the French had joined the English there would be No United States-would that mean that Democracy is a failed concept?
The concept of a viable Craft orientated union for mechanics is just as viable as one for pilots, for Plumbers, for Electricians and even flight Attendants. If a few setbacks is all it takes for mechanics to permanently abandon the concept then shame on them for not following through on the commitment they made on the day they started A&P school. They are the custodians of the profession and if they choose to demand immediate results and complete fruition without being willing to fight for what they want then shame on them, the idea didn’t fail, we failed to make it happen. The road to success is paved with failures, perserverance is the Key. Mechanics waited too long and as a result they will face resistance from the carriers, the government and the rest of the Labor movement that the ALPA and AFA never faced.
You tried AMFA, and after four years you abandoned the concept and dove under the skirt of the IBT for what you thought was more power, you thought they would fight for you. But really, while you are certainly better off than your peers at AA are you as well off as you were under the IAM? Are you as well off as your Brothers at UPS? Your entire time in AMFA was spent while the company was in BK, not exactly the best of times. AMFA was not able to make huge gains but the language they sought and some of the stuff you guys walked out with was better than what we had at AA before AA went BK.
Here is what I have a huge problem with as far as the IBT, why not offer the guys at AA local 2728?
Why not offer the guys at UAL 2729?
If 1200 mechanics can have 2727 then why can’t what will likely be 12000 mechanics have their own local? Why split them up into little pieces spread out into locals where in most cases we will have almost no say in who runs the local? At least with the TWU most of the mechanics are in mechanics locals. The structure the IBT is offering is no better than what’s in place now. Yes the IBT as an organization has performed better than the TWU but that’s not much of an accomplishment. I can call all those numbers and if I ask if they had to do it all over again would they choose this profession my bet is overwhelmingly the answer I would get is NO. The fact is you do not have a “Good contract” you have a contract that is better than the one the TWU has which is a “very bad contract”.
I have to wonder, are there examples within the trucking industry where the spread in pay rates between drivers operating similar equipment is over $17/hr? So we have mechanics in the IBT making top wages, in their own local, controlling their own destiny as mechanics. Then we have mechanics who are spread out and have their voting power diluted to the point where in almost every case their group is a minority in the Locals they were assigned to based upon spreading the dues wealth around. Whose interests are being served? Does the IBT really care about what mechanics want?
Ok, now I can see the difference between UPS and the even more competitive passenger industry. I can swallow the IBTs claim that they would like to get the AA mechanics so they can establish pattern bargaining across the industry, and that Unions such as the IAM and TWU are hurting their ability to negotiate deals at carriers where they represent the members but what I cant accept is why wont the IBT offer the passenger airline mechanics the same deal they gave the UPS mechanics as far as having their own local?
We know the answer, "because its their business, not ours" . The IBT will set the rules, if you don't like it too bad. Those Locals who made an investment are entitled to an ROI. “Just sell it” and let us deal with those who complain about the broken promises.
I was a member of the IBT many years ago. When I went to a union meeting I was the only mechanic there, the only airline worker there. We had a business agent who was never seen. They never took grievances to arbitration, even termination grievances. They took our money, gave us a card and we never saw them again. The Mobsters may be gone but the mentality remains, “ we will tell you what is good for you”.” We will place you in Locals as we see fit and we will charge you a lot more in dues than you are paying now” because as you said, they are like the honey badger, they “don’t give a ####”.
Come back with Local 2728, then you may sway more mechanics who really care about the profession to try the IBT over AMFA, its a given that they want to try something different, but what the IBT is currently offering really isn't that structurally different than what we had with the TWU or the US guys have with the IAM, if anything its even less industry orientated, the biggest difference structurally is that we would just have to pay more for appointed leaders having control over our careers.
Glenn Quagmire
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- Apr 30, 2012
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^^^^^ Great post Thomas ^^^^^
The AMT's at AA should control their own destiny. That will not happen with the IBT setting up the locals as you say.
However, if they vote in The AMFA, they better get off their collective asses and get involved. With AMFA, the output you get is directly proportional to the input.
The AMT's at AA should control their own destiny. That will not happen with the IBT setting up the locals as you say.
However, if they vote in The AMFA, they better get off their collective asses and get involved. With AMFA, the output you get is directly proportional to the input.
Great post. To the point. I still believe that the Teamsters only care about dues money and not the members they spent millions on with lies and deception to get a vote for representation. The AMFA drive was real. Many of us mostly the front line guys spent their own money and time away from home to get the message out about AMFA and a craft union. I still do not know what motive the Teamsters have. Are they interested in representing AA? Are they interested in our money? Are they here only to stop AMFA from filing? Was it a diversion to help keep the TWU on the property for a future favor? We do not know if a election will take place but I am going ahead that there will be one. Many think if you file you have enough cards and a vote will take place. Maybe, maybe not. Our guys at AA need to seriously think about who they vote for when the ballot arrives. The WRITE - IN option for AMFA still remains the best choice for us at AA. Trying to convince the angry guys who will do anything to get rid of the TWU is the hard part. I keep saying the Teamsters are worse than the TWU. Therefore AMFA is the best option or choice. That is why the NMB allows a WRITE - IN as well as NO Representation choice. The NMB does not tie your hands with just two choices. That is Democracy. Teamsters are not Democratic. Once your in try getting out or making changes. Too many appointed positions and no say on many issues like union dues increases for one.
Thomas Paine
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- Sep 4, 2003
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I believe we will have our vote, one way or another.
The IBT may get a vote at AA with the filing. We should find out in a week or so.
If they do not get a vote with the filing and they win at US there would be a vote between the IBT and TWU or a vote for another joint Committee TWU-IBT.
If the IBT fails at both US and AA there will be a vote on whether or not we accept the joint TWU-IAM committee of appointed leaders to be our new representative, but there will be other options as well on all the ballots regardless of scenario. If I understand it correctly even if none of the interveiners prevail the choices would eventually come down to, accept the IAM-TWU alliance as our representative, no union, or write in. Majority is needed to win. its still a very open field, and the only way they could close it would be for the IAM and IBT to simply walk away and let the TWU take everything. You can be sure that the AFL-CIO will be putting the squeeze on them to do just that.
All said I don't think the IBT will back off. Despite my criticism of their structure the IBT has taken the path that performing for the members is a better business practice than rolling over and giving the boss everything they want, if the IBT had been at AA in 2003 I don't think that contract would have been brought back to the membership. The IBT sees the TWU and IAM as a threat to their ability to perform at United-Continental and its not the first time they have gone after other unions that drag down the industry. The IBT despite its heavy handed lack of democracy has never been an active participant in the race to the bottom and were content to let the IAM and TWU duke it out. The question is "is the IBT the best choice" or "just not the TWU/IAM"?
The IBT may get a vote at AA with the filing. We should find out in a week or so.
If they do not get a vote with the filing and they win at US there would be a vote between the IBT and TWU or a vote for another joint Committee TWU-IBT.
If the IBT fails at both US and AA there will be a vote on whether or not we accept the joint TWU-IAM committee of appointed leaders to be our new representative, but there will be other options as well on all the ballots regardless of scenario. If I understand it correctly even if none of the interveiners prevail the choices would eventually come down to, accept the IAM-TWU alliance as our representative, no union, or write in. Majority is needed to win. its still a very open field, and the only way they could close it would be for the IAM and IBT to simply walk away and let the TWU take everything. You can be sure that the AFL-CIO will be putting the squeeze on them to do just that.
All said I don't think the IBT will back off. Despite my criticism of their structure the IBT has taken the path that performing for the members is a better business practice than rolling over and giving the boss everything they want, if the IBT had been at AA in 2003 I don't think that contract would have been brought back to the membership. The IBT sees the TWU and IAM as a threat to their ability to perform at United-Continental and its not the first time they have gone after other unions that drag down the industry. The IBT despite its heavy handed lack of democracy has never been an active participant in the race to the bottom and were content to let the IAM and TWU duke it out. The question is "is the IBT the best choice" or "just not the TWU/IAM"?
You are 100% correct. And some folks do not realize this, as perhaps UAL found out.
Anomaly
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- Jun 2, 2012
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If you had stopped right here, you may have had my agreement. This last line in bold however doomed the rest of your nice little speech. Understand this with a little "common sense" as your avatar Thomas Paine would suggest, I have no adverse views towards an all mechanics union. I believe it would be a fine idea. Unfortunately, unlike the Pilots or Flight Attendants, our jobs are much more susceptible to being farmed out as easily as hiring the nearest Part 145 vendor. The point is, mechanics are much more vulnerable and should realize this before attacking every other union as corrupt industrial zealots (sound familiar Mr TWU Informer?). amfa has not learned humility. They attack all others and complain when they find themselves on the edge without assistance. The overwhelming hostility's towards the amfa are self induced.
Get me another mechanics union that understands the power behind all labor, and maybe I will reconsider. Otherwise, the Teamsters have done very good to fight for mechanics best interests.
By the way, Thomas Paine described our first President George Washington as an incompetent commander and a vain and ungrateful person. In a scathing open letter to President Washington in 1796, he wrote: "the world will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate or an impostor; whether you have abandoned good principles or whether you ever had any." Paine, even at that time was very isolated in his opinions. If this is the guy you chose to best associate with, I have no doubt about the intentions of your posts. Like Paine, it seems you are destined to disrupt at all costs.
AMFA is ready to pursue a WRITE - IN option if a vote is called by the NMB.
From the National Directors MAY 2013 Update at AMFA (fourth paragraph)
http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=195633
On May 28, 2013, the IBT filed for a representation election at American Airlines with the National Mediation Board (NMB), and just a few hours later American Airlines was somehow able to deliver their eligibility list to the NMB. This unprecedented expediency by the Company effectively blocks AMFA from filing as an intervenor and getting on the ballot. Although we filed our petition via fax as soon as possible, the NMB has informed AMFA Legal that our filing has been rejected because the original filing documents and cards did not arrive before 4PM on May 28. It is greatly disappointing that the thousands of mechanic and related employees at American Airlines that signed AMFA cards are now being denied their opportunity to get AMFA on the ballot; however, we are exploring all of our options which include a write-in campaign if the NMB determines that the IBT has submitted enough cards to force an election. If the NMB determines that the IBT failed to demonstrate the “sufficient showing of interest” and filed short of the requirement, the IBT has also prevented the AMFA organizers from reaching their goal of an AMFA representation election.
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
AMFA has not yet officially announced or engaged in a Write In campaign but many AMFA supporters and others who do not want anything to do with the Teamsters are ready for the WRITE - IN if an election is called. Just think how much more support there will be for a WRTE - IN once AMFA officially kicks off the WRITE - IN campaign.
We can kick the TWU out and tell the Teamsters to take a hike if we vote with a clear head and know all the facts. An educated vote is for AMFA.
From the National Directors MAY 2013 Update at AMFA (fourth paragraph)
http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=195633
On May 28, 2013, the IBT filed for a representation election at American Airlines with the National Mediation Board (NMB), and just a few hours later American Airlines was somehow able to deliver their eligibility list to the NMB. This unprecedented expediency by the Company effectively blocks AMFA from filing as an intervenor and getting on the ballot. Although we filed our petition via fax as soon as possible, the NMB has informed AMFA Legal that our filing has been rejected because the original filing documents and cards did not arrive before 4PM on May 28. It is greatly disappointing that the thousands of mechanic and related employees at American Airlines that signed AMFA cards are now being denied their opportunity to get AMFA on the ballot; however, we are exploring all of our options which include a write-in campaign if the NMB determines that the IBT has submitted enough cards to force an election. If the NMB determines that the IBT failed to demonstrate the “sufficient showing of interest” and filed short of the requirement, the IBT has also prevented the AMFA organizers from reaching their goal of an AMFA representation election.
__________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________
AMFA has not yet officially announced or engaged in a Write In campaign but many AMFA supporters and others who do not want anything to do with the Teamsters are ready for the WRITE - IN if an election is called. Just think how much more support there will be for a WRTE - IN once AMFA officially kicks off the WRITE - IN campaign.
We can kick the TWU out and tell the Teamsters to take a hike if we vote with a clear head and know all the facts. An educated vote is for AMFA.
Some people are thinking that AMFA has just walked away from all this. This is not the case. AMFA will not waste their time, money and effort on a "WRITE-IN" campaign if the NMB never calls for a representational election at AA. Once the NMB calls for an election, then you will see more involvement from AMFA. Hope you guys get an election, so some will have the option of "WRITE-IN AMFA".
Thomas Paine
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- Sep 4, 2003
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It doesn't surprise me that you would trash Thomas Paine, the right has successfully all but erased his visionary writings. You should read some of it and you may be surprised at how much still applies today. Calling out a slave owner who claimed to be fighting for Freedom? Maybe you fail to see the hypocrisy in being one while claiming to fight for the other, but he didn't. Even George struggled with it, eventually he "freed" his, but conveniently his wife didn't.
Getting back to Aviation. So are you saying that you are not in agreement that the IBT should offer AA mechanics Local 2728 and you feel that the IBT should stay the course and fracture mechanics up more than they ever were? Tossing them into Locals with people who aren't even in Aviation or transportation, let alone mechanics, and raise their dues in excess of $300/year so they can finance strikes in other industries? The IBT may be banking too much on the desperate desire of many mechanics at AA to rid themselves of the TWU. They may feel that mechanics would throw themselves into a structure that doesn't even pretend to be Democratic or centered around the needs of mechanics just to be rid of the TWU, that may be true except as emotion subsides they may very well take a closer look at what the IBT is really offering and if that's what they really want. You have to remember that mechanics are a cautious lot while at the same time suspicious of any outsider having anything to do with their profession. The thought of having a Zoo Keeper or truck driver as the head of their Local would be worse than having a baggage handler to many. If you got the cards then its a given that they want the TWU gone but you have to remember that AMFA was conceived at AA and has always had a strong following in the group that's coming to its own as the others who supported keeping the TWU decline.
How many signed IBT cards to simply get a chance to vote, like Informer?
Your comment on outsourcing only shows how very similar you are to the TWU. Not even on the property and already preaching FEAR!!
2 of the most important points not to vote IBT. (if there is a vote??)
Vote AMFA. A union of M&R, for M&R. What a concept!!
Anomaly
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- Jun 2, 2012
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Nor does it surprise me that you would view my mention of one of Paines more radical thoughts towards George Washington as trashing. You managed to gloss over the "Common Sense" reference probably also for good reason. While Thomas Paine was indeed a more notable but often overlooked founding father of this country, his writings including "Common Sense" were less about actual circumstances and more about rhetoric in an attempt to infuriate groups into action. His writings were an attempt to incite people with anger. His radical ideas and opinions offered some good, but Pain also created a lot of harm. It is a notable fact that Paine played no part in the establishment of the Republic after American independence had been won.
I have no opinion on the creation of a single local for the AA mechanics. That is something for that group to work out. My experience with the three unions I have belonged to does qualify me at least for a thought on the idea. You asked me to remember that "mechanics are a cautions lot while at the same time suspicious of any outsider having anything to do with their profession". As an aircraft mechanic myself with near 30 years in this industry, remembering this is as easy as exposing the failures of amfa. But when did mechanics in my craft become so narcissistic? When in our schooling to become an A&P's was the class taught to run a Local and represent labor better than any Zoo Keeper or Truck driver?
There is no doubt that in certain cases a knowledge of my everyday work environment is healthy and beneficial, but at the same time to trash all those who are not aircraft mechanics as being under qualified to represent labor is an arrogance I want no part of. I have been part of two mechanics only Locals in my career here at UA. This third union has us in a Local with members from many other industries and I can not tell how it has hampered or harmed my craft in any way. If anything, having a variety of crafts, industries, and ideas is a welcomed benefit.
Thomas Paine wrote out many thoughts and opinions and I find harmony with some of them. His more radical ideas l simply do not agree with. The same can be said about your posts. Who says a truck driver can not be a GREAT labor leader?
At the time of his most influential writings calling for Americans to rise against the British, Paine himself was not American born citizen and signed his most famous pamphlet, "An Englishmen". Thomas Paine was a corset maker, not an aircraft mechanic, but still, you obviously follow him.
