AMFA at AA- consolidated thread

[lineguy43]

Nor does it surprise me that you would view my mention of one of Paines more radical thoughts towards George Washington as trashing. You managed to gloss over the "Common Sense" reference probably also for good reason. While Thomas Paine was indeed a more notable but often overlooked founding father of this country, his writings including "Common Sense" were less about actual circumstances and more about rhetoric in an attempt to infuriate groups into action. His writings were an attempt to incite people with anger. His radical ideas and opinions offered some good, but Pain also created a lot of harm. It is a notable fact that Paine played no part in the establishment of the Republic after American independence had been won.

I have no opinion on the creation of a single local for the AA mechanics. That is something for that group to work out. My experience with the three unions I have belonged to does qualify me at least for a thought on the idea. You asked me to remember that "mechanics are a cautions lot while at the same time suspicious of any outsider having anything to do with their profession". As an aircraft mechanic myself with near 30 years in this industry, remembering this is as easy as exposing the failures of amfa. But when did mechanics in my craft become so narcissistic? When in our schooling to become an A&P's was the class taught to run a Local and represent labor better than any Zoo Keeper or Truck driver?

There is no doubt that in certain cases a knowledge of my everyday work environment is healthy and beneficial, but at the same time to trash all those who are not aircraft mechanics as being under qualified to represent labor is an arrogance I want no part of. I have been part of two mechanics only Locals in my career here at UA. This third union has us in a Local with members from many other industries and I can not tell how it has hampered or harmed my craft in any way. If anything, having a variety of crafts, industries, and ideas is a welcomed benefit.

Thomas Paine wrote out many thoughts and opinions and I find harmony with some of them. His more radical ideas l simply do not agree with. The same can be said about your posts. Who says a truck driver can not be a GREAT labor leader?

At the time of his most influential writings calling for Americans to rise against the British, Paine himself was not American born citizen and signed his most famous pamphlet, "An Englishmen". Thomas Paine was a corset maker, not an aircraft mechanic, but still, you obviously follow him.

If you cannot tell how being lumped in with everyone from a bunch of different groups most of which are unskilled has harmed us than you truly are an idiot. Can you explain how someone who has no aviation experience can go to school for 5 weeks starts out at a regional making what an A@P gets right out of school after 2 yrs of school. Then this 5 week trained person goes to a major after several years of experience much like an A@P would after several years experience and this 5 week trained person makes over and above what an A@P does and has cockpit jumpseat access through the CASS system which A@P's do not have. Can you explain that? The people I am referring to are dispatchers. They like the pilots and the F/A's have their own group representing them and their particular wants and needs. Thanks to the class and craft even with AMFA we were required to take the cleaners. In my local in MEM our local budget was totally ate up by the cleaners and their grievences and thats a group we are forced to take thanks to the NMB. Now you seem to think it's a benefit to have multiple groups under one umbrella how is that any benefit? Until AMFA came along we literally made chump change over what the ramp and agents did when I worked at NW under the IAM. How is that fair? It isn't about putting down any other group I was a ramp guy at one time I went and got my A@P and spent years learning avionics and sheetmetal for what? So I can make 2 dollars an hr more and have a worse shift and WAY more liability than I had before? When AMFA came in I got an instant 13 dollar an hr raise and more than double my pension so don't tell me being lumped in with everyone else is an asset I lived it pal. The strength in numbers the IAM loves to preach is great if you ever plan to use it and strike which will never happen because all the industrial unions I have seen representing AMT's are in bed with the company. So did AMFA fail? Not nessessarily they made some big mistakes no doubt at NW. But NW also did not bargain in good faith and with the help of other unions and the Bush admin and the FAA they busted AMFA at NW but the industry bar was raised even though it has been lowered a bit it still much better than it would have been had AMFA never got in at NWA. If we had stayed with the IAM I can tell you right now virtually no AMT's would be making even close to 30 an hr. I am non-union at FX I make a six figure salary think that would ever happen had the bar not been raised? No chance in hell. We will probably never see what gains we could have since there are too many like you in the AMT ranks who seem to think bigger is better. Too bad 30 yrs ago I didn't become a dispatcher instead. I do my best to talk young people out of becoming an A@P too many idiots in the ranks and too many disadvantages to the trade.

 

[Anomaly]

If you cannot tell how being lumped in with everyone from a bunch of different groups most of which are unskilled has harmed us than you truly are an idiot. Can you explain how someone who has no aviation experience can go to school for 5 weeks starts out at a regional making what an A@P gets right out of school after 2 yrs of school. Then this 5 week trained person goes to a major after several years of experience much like an A@P would after several years experience and this 5 week trained person makes over and above what an A@P does and has cockpit jumpseat access through the CASS system which A@P's do not have. Can you explain that? The people I am referring to are dispatchers. They like the pilots and the F/A's have their own group representing them and their particular wants and needs. Thanks to the class and craft even with AMFA we were required to take the cleaners. In my local in MEM our local budget was totally ate up by the cleaners and their grievences and thats a group we are forced to take thanks to the NMB. Now you seem to think it's a benefit to have multiple groups under one umbrella how is that any benefit? Until AMFA came along we literally made chump change over what the ramp and agents did when I worked at NW under the IAM. How is that fair? It isn't about putting down any other group I was a ramp guy at one time I went and got my A@P and spent years learning avionics and sheetmetal for what? So I can make 2 dollars an hr more and have a worse shift and WAY more liability than I had before? When AMFA came in I got an instant 13 dollar an hr raise and more than double my pension so don't tell me being lumped in with everyone else is an asset I lived it pal. The strength in numbers the IAM loves to preach is great if you ever plan to use it and strike which will never happen because all the industrial unions I have seen representing AMT's are in bed with the company. So did AMFA fail? Not nessessarily they made some big mistakes no doubt at NW. But NW also did not bargain in good faith and with the help of other unions and the Bush admin and the FAA they busted AMFA at NW but the industry bar was raised even though it has been lowered a bit it still much better than it would have been had AMFA never got in at NWA. If we had stayed with the IAM I can tell you right now virtually no AMT's would be making even close to 30 an hr. I am non-union at FX I make a six figure salary think that would ever happen had the bar not been raised? No chance in hell. We will probably never see what gains we could have since there are too many like you in the AMT ranks who seem to think bigger is better. Too bad 30 yrs ago I didn't become a dispatcher instead. I do my best to talk young people out of becoming an A@P too many idiots in the ranks and too many disadvantages to the trade.

So you are a former ramp guy with a bone to pick with cleaners because they spent too much of your Local money and the dispatchers because they can fly in the cockpit? So you say you got $13 per hour more when amfa came in to NWA? And then they sold you down the river and you lost your job. At least you made more for a little while. In all seriousness your numbers do not add up. No top earner mechanic made $13 dollars more an hour at amfa simply by them showing up. It never happened. Did the progressive wage scale have something to do with this? I think probably it did.

What you are too ignorant to understand is it is not the "industrial union" that represents mechanics which forces the disparity in pay but rather the overwhelming abundance of those willing and able to take away our jobs. Mechanics suffer from a readily available third party work force. AA may not have as much experience with Fixed Based Operators or MRO's who are poised to take our jobs, but there are plenty out there just waiting. How many times have you heard of a flight landing at a remote station and the flight crew, Pilots and Flight Attendants, getting replaced by third party vendors? ZERO. Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.

The strength of a craft union is base on a lack of job competition from outside sources. A Pilot is a specialized craft with ZERO outside competition. The same can be said about Flight Attendants. Mechanics were that way too, once upon a time, but here is a surprise ending, WE AINT NO MORE!

There is no strength in a mechanic craft union such as amfa and if your story were true, you would know that. How much assistance from other departments, work groups. industries, or even other unions did amfa have with the mechanics at Nothwest? Not quite zero but very close to it. The go it alone attitude of the association as well as egotistical holier than thou mechanics like you have created so much polarity with other work groups that as a single "craft" you would literally be ON YOUR OWN. How did that work out for you at NWA???

Get real stupid before you dare to call me an idiot. Your pathetic association will do little more to help you than it did to help North West mechanics. At least 7 of you agree with this 'tard.

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

 

[comatose]

So you are a former ramp guy with a bone to pick with cleaners because they spent too much of your Local money and the dispatchers because they can fly in the cockpit? So you say you got $13 per hour more when amfa came in to NWA? And then they sold you down the river and you lost your job. At least you made more for a little while. In all seriousness your numbers do not add up. No top earner mechanic made $13 dollars more an hour at amfa simply by them showing up. It never happened. Did the progressive wage scale have something to do with this? I think probably it did.

What you are too ignorant to understand is it is not the "industrial union" that represents mechanics which forces the disparity in pay but rather the overwhelming abundance of those willing and able to take away our jobs. Mechanics suffer from a readily available third party work force. AA may not have as much experience with Fixed Based Operators or MRO's who are poised to take our jobs, but there are plenty out there just waiting. How many times have you heard of a flight landing at a remote station and the flight crew, Pilots and Flight Attendants, getting replaced by third party vendors? ZERO. Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.

The strength of a craft union is base on a lack of job competition from outside sources. A Pilot is a specialized craft with ZERO outside competition. The same can be said about Flight Attendants. Mechanics were that way too, once upon a time, but here is a surprise ending, WE AINT NO MORE!

There is no strength in a mechanic craft union such as amfa and if your story were true, you would know that. How much assistance from other departments, work groups. industries, or even other unions did amfa have with the mechanics at Nothwest? Not quite zero but very close to it. The go it alone attitude of the association as well as egotistical holier than thou mechanics like you have created so much polarity with other work groups that as a single "craft" you would literally be ON YOUR OWN. How did that work out for you at NWA???

Get real stupid before you dare to call me an idiot. Your pathetic association will do little more to help you than it did to help North West mechanics. At least 7 of you agree with this 'tard.

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

Wow, sounds like the TWU to me. You're lucky to have a job brother.
Go ahead and push your industrial union bs.

 

[Vortilon]

Wow, sounds like the TWU to me. You're lucky to have a job brother.
Go ahead and push your industrial union bs.

You're right, with guys that think like Anomaly negotiating for the M&R at AA we are screwed even worse than we already are! What anomaly fails to understand is, the industry is already suffering from a lack of A&P mechanics. The third party MROs can't attract any talent; in fact, they can't even retain what they have. Enrollment at A&P schools is down every year. The prestige of working for an airline - no longer exists. With the internet, comes information on what comes with an airline job. Too much downside!

 

[Rogallo]

So you are a former ramp guy with a bone to pick with cleaners because they spent too much of your Local money and the dispatchers because they can fly in the cockpit? So you say you got $13 per hour more when amfa came in to NWA? And then they sold you down the river and you lost your job. At least you made more for a little while. In all seriousness your numbers do not add up. No top earner mechanic made $13 dollars more an hour at amfa simply by them showing up. It never happened. Did the progressive wage scale have something to do with this? I think probably it did.

What you are too ignorant to understand is it is not the "industrial union" that represents mechanics which forces the disparity in pay but rather the overwhelming abundance of those willing and able to take away our jobs. Mechanics suffer from a readily available third party work force. AA may not have as much experience with Fixed Based Operators or MRO's who are poised to take our jobs, but there are plenty out there just waiting. How many times have you heard of a flight landing at a remote station and the flight crew, Pilots and Flight Attendants, getting replaced by third party vendors? ZERO. Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.

The strength of a craft union is base on a lack of job competition from outside sources. A Pilot is a specialized craft with ZERO outside competition. The same can be said about Flight Attendants. Mechanics were that way too, once upon a time, but here is a surprise ending, WE AINT NO MORE!

There is no strength in a mechanic craft union such as amfa and if your story were true, you would know that. How much assistance from other departments, work groups. industries, or even other unions did amfa have with the mechanics at Nothwest? Not quite zero but very close to it. The go it alone attitude of the association as well as egotistical holier than thou mechanics like you have created so much polarity with other work groups that as a single "craft" you would literally be ON YOUR OWN. How did that work out for you at NWA???

Get real stupid before you dare to call me an idiot. Your pathetic association will do little more to help you than it did to help North West mechanics. At least 7 of you agree with this 'tard.

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

ROTFLMAO...

 

[Anomaly]

^ ^ ^
I guess we found three of the 7 geniuses....

The first guys avatar says it all.

 

[Rogallo]

Overspeed wrote:

More Teamster misdirection from their failures. United and Continental all outsource 50% or more of their maintenance spend. Before UA members voted in the Teamsters the spend was 40% in 2007 and it not stands at 50%. Teamster power? Not!

In BK AA wanted the IBT scope language because they wanted to outsource more work like United and Continental. Research the facts brothers and sisters. Airlines under IBT contracts have fewer AMTs and Title II mechanics than any other airline. We still have more M&R with a BK negotiated contract than the IBT does at United and Continental in a non-BK contract. The IAM has better scope language at US than the IBT. United with 3 lines of airframe overhaul is a lot less than the amount of inhouse work at US.


Hey Anomaly, how's the card count coming?

 

[lineguy43]

So you are a former ramp guy with a bone to pick with cleaners because they spent too much of your Local money and the dispatchers because they can fly in the cockpit? So you say you got $13 per hour more when amfa came in to NWA? And then they sold you down the river and you lost your job. At least you made more for a little while. In all seriousness your numbers do not add up. No top earner mechanic made $13 dollars more an hour at amfa simply by them showing up. It never happened. Did the progressive wage scale have something to do with this? I think probably it did.

What you are too ignorant to understand is it is not the "industrial union" that represents mechanics which forces the disparity in pay but rather the overwhelming abundance of those willing and able to take away our jobs. Mechanics suffer from a readily available third party work force. AA may not have as much experience with Fixed Based Operators or MRO's who are poised to take our jobs, but there are plenty out there just waiting. How many times have you heard of a flight landing at a remote station and the flight crew, Pilots and Flight Attendants, getting replaced by third party vendors? ZERO. Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.

The strength of a craft union is base on a lack of job competition from outside sources. A Pilot is a specialized craft with ZERO outside competition. The same can be said about Flight Attendants. Mechanics were that way too, once upon a time, but here is a surprise ending, WE AINT NO MORE!

There is no strength in a mechanic craft union such as amfa and if your story were true, you would know that. How much assistance from other departments, work groups. industries, or even other unions did amfa have with the mechanics at Nothwest? Not quite zero but very close to it. The go it alone attitude of the association as well as egotistical holier than thou mechanics like you have created so much polarity with other work groups that as a single "craft" you would literally be ON YOUR OWN. How did that work out for you at NWA???

Get real stupid before you dare to call me an idiot. Your pathetic association will do little more to help you than it did to help North West mechanics. At least 7 of you agree with this 'tard.

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

You really are an idiot...I am telling you when AMFA negotiated our first contract I got a 13 dollar an hour raise not over the course of years I got it on the spot. Retirement went from 40 per month to 85. So don't tell me what my paycheck was I know what it was..And Fight Attendants a specialized group? What the F are you smoking? They get a few weeks OJT and recurrent thats it. Think they can't be replaced? Does TWA ring a bell?. Yes mechanics can and are farmed out mostly its heavy maintenance. Most airlines want their own line mechanics much like they don't want to farm out operational control to a vendor hence why dispatchers are not farmed out. They are a small group. I have to concede that it sucks for heavy maintenance guys but the fact remains that no airline is going to pay both heavy MX and line top pay when they can farm out the heavy mx on the cheap. Also Im sorry but yes I had issues with cleaners being in my craft union. Nothing personal but they have no special skills other than working with chemicals. They have no license and no liability their mistakes cannot take lives( except maybe their own) . As for AMFA not having support well can't blame the IAM after all we threw them out. NW was hell bent on busting AMFA because they did not know how to deal with a militant union. They were used to a docile IAM who rolled over when asked to by the company. IAM brought back an abysmal contract in the best times in my working career in the airline business they deserved what they got. .I have about another 10 years in this business glad I am getting out of it. Hopefully in the future maybe mechanics will see the light but I doubt it..

 

[comatose]

^ ^ ^
I guess we found three of the 7 geniuses....

The first guys avatar says it all.

It's an avatar that will stay as long as we have an industrial union.
As long as the TWU is our pretend union we all have our heads in our ass.

 

[xUT]

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

Viewed your face book page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/****-you-Im-a-Honey-Badger/183031568488330

This page posts anything and everything. If you're the kind of person that gets butthurt, #### off and take it elsewhere. Everyone else, welcome to this page.

You honey badgers are not very smart.
So take your analogies and stick them where the sun don't shine...

B) xUT

 

[xUT]

You really are an idiot...I am telling you when AMFA negotiated our first contract I got a 13 dollar an hour raise not over the course of years I got it on the spot. Retirement went from 40 per month to 85. So don't tell me what my paycheck was I know what it was..And Fight Attendants a specialized group? What the F are you smoking? They get a few weeks OJT and recurrent thats it. Think they can't be replaced? Does TWA ring a bell?. Yes mechanics can and are farmed out mostly its heavy maintenance. Most airlines want their own line mechanics much like they don't want to farm out operational control to a vendor hence why dispatchers are not farmed out. They are a small group. I have to concede that it sucks for heavy maintenance guys but the fact remains that no airline is going to pay both heavy MX and line top pay when they can farm out the heavy mx on the cheap. Also Im sorry but yes I had issues with cleaners being in my craft union. Nothing personal but they have no special skills other than working with chemicals. They have no license and no liability their mistakes cannot take lives( except maybe their own) . As for AMFA not having support well can't blame the IAM after all we threw them out. NW was hell bent on busting AMFA because they did not know how to deal with a militant union. They were used to a docile IAM who rolled over when asked to by the company. IAM brought back an abysmal contract in the best times in my working career in the airline business they deserved what they got. .I have about another 10 years in this business glad I am getting out of it. Hopefully in the future maybe mechanics will see the light but I doubt it..

You can't fix stupid!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6wbsGx9qw

B) xUT

 

[Vortilon]

Anomaly, speaking of avatars your avatar doesn't really match up too well with your persona. C'mon, the whole A-10 image is a little much for your weak leanings. You might want to consider using a common sheep.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

So you are a former ramp guy with a bone to pick with cleaners because they spent too much of your Local money and the dispatchers because they can fly in the cockpit? So you say you got $13 per hour more when amfa came in to NWA? And then they sold you down the river and you lost your job. At least you made more for a little while. In all seriousness your numbers do not add up. No top earner mechanic made $13 dollars more an hour at amfa simply by them showing up. It never happened. Did the progressive wage scale have something to do with this? I think probably it did.

What you are too ignorant to understand is it is not the "industrial union" that represents mechanics which forces the disparity in pay but rather the overwhelming abundance of those willing and able to take away our jobs. Mechanics suffer from a readily available third party work force. AA may not have as much experience with Fixed Based Operators or MRO's who are poised to take our jobs, but there are plenty out there just waiting. How many times have you heard of a flight landing at a remote station and the flight crew, Pilots and Flight Attendants, getting replaced by third party vendors? ZERO. Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.

The strength of a craft union is base on a lack of job competition from outside sources. A Pilot is a specialized craft with ZERO outside competition. The same can be said about Flight Attendants. Mechanics were that way too, once upon a time, but here is a surprise ending, WE AINT NO MORE!

There is no strength in a mechanic craft union such as amfa and if your story were true, you would know that. How much assistance from other departments, work groups. industries, or even other unions did amfa have with the mechanics at Nothwest? Not quite zero but very close to it. The go it alone attitude of the association as well as egotistical holier than thou mechanics like you have created so much polarity with other work groups that as a single "craft" you would literally be ON YOUR OWN. How did that work out for you at NWA???

Get real stupid before you dare to call me an idiot. Your pathetic association will do little more to help you than it did to help North West mechanics. At least 7 of you agree with this 'tard.

I took you for an intelligent bunch.

My mistake.

So.....Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.....

Ever heard of regional carriers?

How about the deal UAL tried to cut with Aer Lingus on the Washington-Madrid route?

United Pilots certainly sound concerned over the prospect of their jobs being outsourced.

Here is just one article on the subject that pretty much exposes your blatant ignorance yet again.

http://economyincrisis.org/content/pilots-protest-outsourcing

“The pilots of Continental and United are unified on the issue of protecting the jobs of our pilots, and to stop the outsourcing of our flying,” said Capt. Jay Pierce, Chairman of the Continental pilots unit of ALPA. “We have no reservations about using the full range of legal methods available to bring resolution to this issue and ultimately prevent the outsourcing that we strongly believe violates the Continental pilots’ contract.”

 

[Anomaly]

So.....Passenger carriers do not contract PILOT vendors.....

Ever heard of regional carriers?

How about the deal UAL tried to cut with Aer Lingus on the Washington-Madrid route?

United Pilots certainly sound concerned over the prospect of their jobs being outsourced.

Here is just one article on the subject that pretty much exposes your blatant ignorance yet again.

http://economyincris...est-outsourcing

“The pilots of Continental and United are unified on the issue of protecting the jobs of our pilots, and to stop the outsourcing of our flying,” said Capt. Jay Pierce, Chairman of the Continental pilots unit of ALPA. “We have no reservations about using the full range of legal methods available to bring resolution to this issue and ultimately prevent the outsourcing that we strongly believe violates the Continental pilots’ contract.”

It's not a party until my brother Teamster shows up.

Outsourcing flying is not at all the same as outsourcing jobs. Are you trying to tell me that at some point on some route a United pilot can step off the plane and the company has an option to insert a vendor pilot? How about a flight attendant? If a FA does not show or is late for a flight can a vendor supply a replacement to operate the lagging flight? OF COURSE NOT.

But with all of our airlines, all mechanics, even the line mechanics, can be replaced at any time. What protects us is our contracts negotiated from our respective unions. The craft only union is of ZERO consequence because our craft has been weakened by the availability of so many vendors. While the number of new A&P mechanics entering the trade may in fact be down, I would not count on that to save my future.

The point is very simple. There are no VENDOR pilots who fly any of your respective carriers aircraft, but we all have vendors who perform maintenance on these exact same planes. Using this tiny bit of revelation, someone explain how a mechanics ONLY craft union can provide any REAL benefit. Please spare me the amfa constitution mumbo jumbo.

We need a real union that is willing to do more than just spew rhetorical mish mash about a constitution and single craft association. amfa has already proven that they are worthless when acting alone.

YOU WROTE...

"Yes mechanics can and are farmed out mostly its heavy maintenance. Most airlines want their own line mechanics..."

You sold out on your former ramp buddies, now you sold out on maintenance overhaul and all hangar work.. We know you you are looking out for. Spoken like a true amfa follower. Always out for number one.

You honey badgers are not very smart.
So take your analogies and stick them where the sun don't shine...

B) xUT

Right back at you xUT. At least YOU give me a good laugh.

Anomaly, speaking of avatars your avatar doesn't really match up too well with your persona. C'mon, the whole A-10 image is a little much for your weak leanings. You might want to consider using a common sheep.

I have been attacking the amfa lie infested rhetoric since I first came across this blog site. I have worn down most of you at one time or another and through it all.... I am still here. My Warthog is a fair description of what I am doing. Thank you for noticing.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Outsourcing flying is not at all the same as outsourcing jobs???

That's sheer idiocy!

Whether its the outsourcing of a C-chk line to China, or the outsourcing of mainline flying to a regional airline, the end result is the same to the mechanic, pilot, or flight attendant....A-LOSS-OF-JOBS!

You rail away at AMFA , yet what have the teamsters done? What good was all your ibt lie infested rhetoric to the mechanics at Horizon?

You take over mid negotiations - it was the teamsters time to shine. The pilots at Horizon are teamsters - more leverage to bolster the unions position.

What happened? Epic Failure.

Not only was Heavy maintenance lost, the ibt agreed in writing to never bring it up in public or to grieve it.

30+% of the original Horizon membership GONE!

Thats just a regional carrier! The ibt clearly couldn't handle that even with the added benefit of having the pilots in their corner.