American's DFW-PEK Application in Jeopardy

[Mach85ER]

I do have a problem with screwing other work groups along the way. 3 of the 6 items on their list would outright screw the F/A's and they didn't even have the courage to notify our union first. That right there shows the amount of disdain APA has for our profession.

There seems to be a theme here in this post (or lack of) that is resulting in a general sense of "crankyness"

 

[Hunter]

I think the pilots should have a seperate hotel van and maybe even a different hotel all together.

Been there. Done that, MiAAmi. At the former TWA, IFFA (independent union before IAM) represented flight attendants had contractually negotiated separate hotel transportation.

It must not have lowered the acrimony between the two work groups though. Pilots crossed the flight attendants picket line in droves. The imposed work rules that were a consequence of theirs and other work groups treacherous behavior resulted in the flight attendants losing that “benefitâ€￾ and nearly 44% of their pay and work rules to corporate-raider, Carl Icahn.

Ahhhhh, the virtues of experience are incalculable. Wake up, APFA!

 

[eolesen]

I find it sad that there are people who actually think that turning away extremely rare opportunities like this is justifiable.

APA's position makes no more sense than it would to for me to quit my job just to stop my wife from buying a Diet Coke at the Kwikee Mart every day.

Instead of allowing the company to grow, they've ensured that AA won't be able to expand in one of the most important global markets. That's going to hurt front line employees a lot more in the long run than it will management, especially if people like me shift flying to airlines like CO who have more than just one route into China (I refuse to fly NW and would rather not fly on UA).

 

[Itestwell]

I find it sad that there are people who actually think that turning away extremely rare opportunities like this is justifiable.

APA's position makes no more sense than it would to for me to quit my job just to stop my wife from buying a Diet Coke at the Kwikee Mart every day.

Instead of allowing the company to grow, they've ensured that AA won't be able to expand in one of the most important global markets. That's going to hurt front line employees a lot more in the long run than it will management, especially if people like me shift flying to airlines like CO who have more than just one route into China (I refuse to fly NW and would rather not fly on UA).

I am confused. You are relating a Diet Coke to a China route? Should the pilots just "give up" whatever AA wants to receive the coveted China route? Give me a break.

Nice job, APA. You absolutely should not be asked to do more with less. Concessions to your company have been generously granted.

I disagree with your assessment that this will "hurt front line employees a lot more..." In fact, it may protect them from even further painful concessions (read: APA said no, maybe this employee group will too!). Remember, it has become commonplace in this industry to "justify" the insanely low cost fares on the backs of labor. Over and over. Enough is enough. Make it work with the generous concessions you have thus received.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I find it sad that there are people who actually think that turning away extremely rare opportunities like this is justifiable.

APA's position makes no more sense than it would to for me to quit my job just to stop my wife from buying a Diet Coke at the Kwikee Mart every day.

Instead of allowing the company to grow, they've ensured that AA won't be able to expand in one of the most important global markets. That's going to hurt front line employees a lot more in the long run than it will management, especially if people like me shift flying to airlines like CO who have more than just one route into China (I refuse to fly NW and would rather not fly on UA).

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

FM,

YOU, perhaps more than ANYONE else on this AA "site", know FOR SURE, if Crandall was put into a similiar position, that he would have VERY reluctantly "defered" to APA, and would have got "EVEN" 3 fold down the road !!!!

We're Talking CHINA here.

If AA did'nt get the award, then it would'nt have cost AA a "dime" !!

(Obviously) APA is'nt about winning personality contests, but no matter how you Company guy's slice it, or spin it, APA was within their RIGHT to NOT agree to a "side letter".

Thats ALWAYS been a HUGE problem with AA's UNIONS. Too many (pro company) Side letters.


NH/BB's

 

[Fly]

(I refuse to fly NW and would rather not fly on UA).

You don't want to fly the airlines that actually fly it...a lot? :blink:

My son recently started driving, PM me your info so that you can drive with him . I'm afraid my heart is going to pop right out if I have to keep doing it.

 

[jimntx]

My son recently started driving, PM me your info so that you can drive with him . I'm afraid my heart is going to pop right out if I have to keep doing it.

A "scant triple" of medicinal bourbon and an eyemask help.

 

[eolesen]

YOU, perhaps more than ANYONE else on this AA "site", know FOR SURE, if Crandall was put into a similiar position, that he would have VERY reluctantly "defered" to APA, and would have got "EVEN" 3 fold down the road !!!!

We're Talking CHINA here.

Doubtful, Bears. I doubt the pilots would have tried this crap with Crandall. Carty? Definitely. But not Bob. In this situation, I could see him withdrawing the application with the DOT instead of amending it.

Then again, with Crandall in charge, it would have been filed within the provisions of the existing contract, and for ORD-PEK from the start. That was Arpey's mistake here.

You don't want to fly the airlines that actually fly it...a lot? :blink:

That's the point of this route case, Fly.

Five years ago, I had no choice but to fly with bitter/elderly flight attendants on NW or UA.

Today I also have the option of flying with bitter/elderly flight attendants on AA, or not quite as bitter/middle aged flight attendants on CO.

So I'll gladly choose AA or CO, thank you. They help keep jobs in Seattle by buying all-Boeing, serve most of the places I need to go on business without the use of code-whore partners, and have simply done a better job of keeping my business. The couple times I've flown UA this year convinced me that their onboard service is a step below flying coach for 15 hours on Air India.

 

[Fly]

Well I'm not a bitter/elderly f/a, and I've flown it. You must have missed me, maybe I was busy driving with my son. Yikes!

 

[Bob Owens]

The problem is that you were willing to step on other work groups to get what you wanted.

First of all I'm not a pilot, I'm a merchanic.



"I don't know how many pilots came running to flight attendants to persuade us to vote yes for the concessions because "we" all could lose our pensions. "

And if you voted yes whose fault is that?


"I'm suprised that the pilots didn't ask the company to take money from the flight attendants and other work groups and give it to the pilots in exchange for the PEK route."

Well they already did that. In 2003 all the workgroups took 25% paycuts, but the pilots got back 10% the first year.


"I'm 100% sure there were better ways to get compensated for the extended flying than how APA approached this one."

 

[Bob Owens]

I find it sad that there are people who actually think that turning away extremely rare opportunities like this is justifiable.

The APA is taking advantage of the opportunity to get something from the company. Whats wrong with that? This situation is certainly more justifyable than the company taking advantage of 9-11 and the thousands of deaths to jam unreasonable concessions down their workers throats.


"APA's position makes no more sense than it would to for me to quit my job just to stop my wife from buying a Diet Coke at the Kwikee Mart every day."

Sure it does, AA wants something and the APA is saying they want something in return, quid pro quo, its the normal way of doing business.


"Instead of allowing the company to grow, they've ensured that AA won't be able to expand in one of the most important global markets. "

Wrong again, AA is the one who refuses to negotiate.



"That's going to hurt front line employees a lot more in the long run than it will management, especially if people like me shift flying to airlines like CO who have more than just one route into China (I refuse to fly NW and would rather not fly on UA)."

Yea, like we dont hear that every time we dont do what management wants, well the fact is we have been doing what they want and we are no better for it, in fact the opposite. Management always tries this same infantile game of trying to get other workers against the pilots, well not only does it not work, even if it did the pilots could care less. Like I said, what else are any of the other work groups willing to give up to allow Aa to get this route? I for one am not willing to give up anything. Let someone else have it if thats the case.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

From yesterday's MIA domicile meeting:

As soon as the route is given to one of our competitors, APA is releasing a route analysis that shows the ammended DFW-ORD-PEK route would've cost significantly more than the low/no cost items APA originally requested to allow the LOA for DFW-PEK.

It is my opinion that AMR already knew through political channels that they weren't getting the route and decided to reject the offer from APA out-of-hand. This, in conjunction with the sham of the route ammendment request to "comply" with the pilot's contract, would allow AMR to gain leverage in the form of employee animosity during section 6.

The same crap has been going on here since before I came to the property in 1991, and it's going to continue right on through the negotiations with APA, APFA, and TWU. Save some of that vitriol for the other two unions, your time is coming...

 

[MAH4546]

It is my opinion that AMR already knew through political channels that they weren't getting the route and decided to reject the offer from APA out-of-hand. This, in conjunction with the sham of the route ammendment request to "comply" with the pilot's contract would allow AMR to gain leverage in the form of employee animosity during section 6.

AA didn't know anything. The fact remains, as much as some people like to trash AA's application, they had the best application. They were the favourite and had the very strong political backing of both Florida and Texas.

 

[IORFA]

Problem for your theory ILS2... is that APA started the whole trash the other union thing this time. Nice try though.

 

[ILS2MINIMUMS]

AA didn't know anything. The fact remains, as much as some people like to trash AA's application, they had the best application. They were the favourite and had the very strong political backing of both Florida and Texas.

Sorry Mr. Arpey, I didn't realize you were participating on message boards...

The fact of the matter is you don't know any more than I do about what AMR knew. My statement was pure conjecture, which is why I made a point of underlining the word 'my' in the phrase "my opinion".

The last time I checked, there were 100 Senators and over 400 members of the House... Having the TX and FL camps on board didn't assure anything. CAL had just as good a chance as anyone (service from one giant city to the largest city in America, with connections to Europe, the US, and South America from EWR) and UAL had a great chance with service from capital to capital...

The pilots didn't blow this. Hate 'em or not, they didn't cost the company this route.

Problem for your theory ILS2... is that APA started the whole trash the other union thing this time. Nice try though.

If by trashing another union you mean asking for an empty jumpseat, well, you got me there...

Had hutto-blake not opened her mouth, APFA would've had a perfect opportunity to get the empty cockpit jumpseat in return for the APA's request. Instead, she brandished her sword and fell on it.