ThirdSeatHero
Veteran
ALPA-APA
AFA-APFA
AMFA-TWU
IAM-TWU
etc, etc, etc.....
And thats not even touching on who'd be the ringmaster to this circus.
I doubt it'd ever happen, but secretly I hope it would because that would be damn fun to watch!
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American's DFW-PEK Application in Jeopardy
- Thread starter Cosmo
- Start date
ALPA-APA
AFA-APFA
AMFA-TWU
IAM-TWU
etc, etc, etc.....
And thats not even touching on who'd be the ringmaster to this circus.
I doubt it'd ever happen, but secretly I hope it would because that would be damn fun to watch!
What about a NW/UA tie up? UA divests itself of NW pacific routes, which will recoup a large amount of the investment money. They have similar fleet plans, both fly 747-400's. There is some wide body differences. UA closes either MSP or DTW and beefs up MEM to have a true southern HUB to compete with DL-ATL, US-CLT, AA-DFW, and CO-IAH.
jimntx
Veteran
Don't know about recouping a large amount of the investment. A NW/UA merger would be required to get rid of Pacific routes to avoid anti-trust implications. A required sale does not necessarily bring market value unless there are several bidders.
Who besides AMR has that kind of unencumbered cash on hand?
CO should have a good cushion right now. If US can find 8.5 billion to buy Bankrupt Delta, I think they could easily find the funds to buy the NW Orient Routes from a combined UA/NW. And there only have to be two bidders to have a bidding war.
jimntx
Veteran
Unlike AMR, CO has a bunch of new a/c on order. In fact, they just upgraded some 737 orders from the 800 to the 900.
If US succeeds in its bid for DL, it will need all the cash it can get its hands on to keep the ship afloat.
"I see lawsuits. Everywhere. I see lawsuits."
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,945
- 9,372
Who needs cash when there are others willing to front the money?
In the HP/US merger, most of the financing came from investment firms (ACE Aviation Holdings, Boston-based PAR Investment Partners; Virginia-based Peninsula Investment Partners; and Eastshore Aviation Holdings), Airbus, credit card companies, and other unidentified partners/vendors.
CO's free cash (including short term securities) appears to be around $2.5B based on their 3Q earnings reports. By comparison, UA shows about $1.6B and AS around $1B, but its harder to figure out how much is restricted cash for those two carriers.
ALPA-APA
AFA-APFA
AMFA-TWU
IAM-TWU
etc, etc, etc.....
And thats not even touching on who'd be the ringmaster to this circus.
I doubt it'd ever happen, but secretly I hope it would because that would be damn fun to watch!
Who would be the victors?
APA-the AA pilots outnumber ALPA
APFA-Same as APA
AMFA-line stations and probably most of AFW and MCI , along with those with recall rights from NWA would vote for AMFA.
IAM-Questionable because of AFL-CIO affiliation there is a good chance that they would not contest it.But if it came to a vote most AA ramp people would opt out of the TWU.The IAM already has a decent sized following at AA due to all the exEAL and TWA guys there.
Why go through all that trouble and expense if they have to then divest? As far as fleet compatability who cares? The next crisis is already set-new aircraft, all the airlines will be crying that they need to modernize the fleet. The old clunkers will be headed to Asia and Africa. This way it keeps the economy perking along and the capital all tied up and out of our hands.
NW/UA both have a relatively brand spanking new fleet of A319's/20's/21's. NW has an order for new 787's already in place. They are currently taking deliveries of brand new A330-300's and A330-400's. This whole merger game is no longer about just getting bigger, but also about increasing profits by reducing competition.
Both airlines have very generous commuter feed agreements, allowing for equipment holding up to 100 passengers to be outsourced.
The pilots at NW and UAL are both represented by ALPA. The mechanics at UA are AMFA, the former mechanics at NW were AMFA.
With the loss of the DFW-PKG route, there is a zero chance of any sort of recall in 20007. With the upcoming Beijing Olympic Games in 2008, this is also a huge revenue loss to AA. And people wonder why I'm such a slam clicker and avoid having anything to do with pilots during layovers. Some are nice, but the bottom line is, they can't relate to flight attendants and are oblivious to the impact this will have on ALL employees.
Like I said, don't waste your breath. They won't ever get it. Most pilots think they are just better than every flight attendant, including the ones they married! My last trip all us F/A's waited outside the bus so the pilots could get on first. The CA asked what we were doing and I calmly explained that they must think that they also deserve first choice of seats to the hotel if they want our J/S and deadheading priority. The 2 F/O's immediately walked around us and sat down. The CA, who has less than 2 months left, waited till we all got on then sat in the worst seat left. Exactly zero words exchanged between any F/A and Pilot the rest of the ride. Zero interaction on the layover and zero interaction onboard the aircraft. If anyone has a problem with how F/A's interact with you. All you need to do is look at your union leadership and the face in the mirror. Let me say that I am not a management bootlicker and have no problem with strong arming the Co. I do have a problem with screwing other work groups along the way. 3 of the 6 items on their list would outright screw the F/A's and they didn't even have the courage to notify our union first. That right there shows the amount of disdain APA has for our profession.
Well, if AA loses the application because the pilots do not want to fly it without enhanced benefits, then APA can think about lost CA positions, a great layover spot, and perhaps some recalls that will go unfilled. It will be fun to watch how they try to spin that to the membership.
I think the pilots should have a seperate hotel van and maybe even a different hotel all together.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
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IORFA,...Nor'Easta,
I find myself in "strange territory" disagreeing with you two, because I've always agreed with 99% of your posts...ESPECIALLY you IORFA.
You guys ride around with the cockpit crew for a $$ living, so FAR BE IT from me, to suggest that there are'nt a LOT of DICK HEADS up there !! (But I seriouslt doubt it pertains to all of them)
BOTTOM line, the Pilots "were not wrong" to NOT open up their contract !!!
Sure, in their attempt to solve the "16" hour problem, some F--K-ING Jerk, threw the jumpseat equation in there for "good measure", AND I'm (fairly) sure, if AA granted them the "Money Only" portion, I'd bet it would have passed muster with APA.
AH,
But AA "DID'NT" even do that !!!!!!, and it was'nt as if, if AA had, that it was going to cost them..multi-millions to do so. If it was a case that APA had AA "by the short hairs", then AA could have put "it" in the momory bank, and got "EVEN", 3 fold down the road . I MEAN WE ARE TALKING CHINA ROUTE HERE !!!!!!!!
Know that it would be VERY easy for UA and NW to take on another carrier..EACH, and further strengthen their "HAMMER LOCK" in China/Asia, which leads me to believe that AA HAS a plan "B" all along, if this route was not awarded, not to mention that AA will have to wait MANY years for the 787's !!!!!!!!!
Something is NOT Kosher here :huh: :huh: :huh:
NH/BB's
So what concessions are you willing to give to AA in order for them to pick up this route?
Why should you expect the pilots to give the company something for nothing? I dont, and if the company doesnt get the route its their own fault, lackies who come here and blame the pilots for not cowtowing to managements arrogance are sickening. It reminds of how the company pulled the same crap back in 1997, and the TWU went along with it.
When I feel the pilots are wrong I say so, but in this case they are 100% right. I dont think they will have any problem explaining to the membership why they refused to give more concessions so the company could make more money. The company continues to feel that they can act unilaterally.Its about time at least one of the unions told them "NO, you want something, well, so do we".
The problem is that you were willing to step on other work groups to get what you wanted. I don't know how many pilots came running to flight attendants to persuade us to vote yes for the concessions because "we" all could lose our pensions. I'm suprised that the pilots didn't ask the company to take money from the flight attendants and other work groups and give it to the pilots in exchange for the PEK route. I'm 100% sure there were better ways to get compensated for the extended flying than how APA approached this one.
