American/USAir-why not now?

[wings396]

That was great. All of this stuff has put a dent in his Delta spins. Take note that the Delta boards are basically a morgue minus his postings. The only guy that starts 95% of the topics on "HIS" airline, then responds to his own stuff. Must be sad to be so lonely that this is your only connection with the outside world.
Why don't you get a companion for yourself down there, I hear that they are very reasonable....

 

[Kev3188]

Could we get you to sign one with Delta?

Thread over. Pi wins.

 

[jimntx]

Like it or not, DL is doing a LOT better than the rest of us (AA and LCC in particular). If you don't like that fact being put in front of you, don't read the posts. It doesn't seem to bother LCC pilots (from both houses) to post the same tired, childish drivel day in and day out, week after week, month after month for the past 7 years. Why should you be bothered by the truth?

 

[wings396]

So what, this clown doesn't even work for DL anymore. If you don't mind him rubbing how well DL is doing in your face amidst a thread about AA being in BK, good for you. So Delta is king, take your ball and go home. I enjoy when my favorite sports team wins a championship as well, but I won't gloat about it 24/7 months and years afterwards.
Would you appreciate your neighbor boasting about how well he is doing after you just lost your job? In most cases if things are going so well, you really don't need to tell everyone about it. There is only one reason that you would, and that is for ATTENTION.
Even though 99% is negative, the poor guy is getting some.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Like it or not, DL is doing a LOT better than the rest of us (AA and LCC in particular). If you don't like that fact being put in front of you, don't read the posts. It doesn't seem to bother LCC pilots (from both houses) to post the same tired, childish drivel day in and day out, week after week, month after month for the past 7 years. Why should you be bothered by the truth?

amen, brother.

those who seem to focus on frequency of postings and the amount of words are those who can't seem to find anything more to say to counter the points others are making.

There are a number of high profile participants of this board who are not active airline employees.... if you want to restrict the conversation to active employees, start a forum that requires a validation e-mail from a current airline e-mail address as some sites require.

I can tell you, however, that the owners of this forum gain a whole lot of traffic based on the participation of non-airline personnel and aren't about to cut their ad revenues in order to protect a few airline employees who can't keep up.

BTW, my participation on this forum is and always has been about the exchange of ideas.... it is not the least bit personal. I could sit down for a meal w/ most any one on this forum and would probably foot the bill.
Some of you might do well to keep the conversation in its proper perspective.

We'll know in a couple weeks just how well all of the airlines did during the key summer season - which is indeed a predictor of how well they are positioned to go thru the winter.

We should probably also find out within a few weeks whether AMR's creditors will allow AA mgmt to continue w/ its own standalone plan or entertain other options.

I continue to believe, as I have since the day AMR filed, that they will emerge as a standalone company and will make their own strategic choices going forward.

The implications of what that means for US will be something US has to figure out amidst a much more competitive environment on the east coast.

 

[wings396]

That's because your postings are all the same crap, with the same subliminal message....Delta is great, everyone else sucks and is bound for doom at the hands of Delta..
A broken record comes to mind...

 

[WorldTraveler]

and if it is true, then it doesn't really matter how many times it is said. Or as Jim notes, you can choose not to read and respond.

If it is not true, then that will become obvious and the proof will be on me to defend my posts.

But your hyperbole ISN'T what I have posted... but DL is a solid leader in the US airline sector... and financial statistics show that with DL's market capitalization anywhere from 25% more than UAL to more than 4X larger than LCC.... and if you want to use enterprise value which is often a better representation of the cost to acquire a company, then DAL is worth 3X more than either LUV or AMR.

All of the other noise on this forum doesn't mean a whole lot if the airline in question is not capable of generating financial results necessary to meet the expectations of the employees.

Once again, I joined this thread based on the ideas of a few people who believed that the traditional labor model is broken and I countered that notion to say that the traditional legacy carrier union-mgmt labor model is broken. There is ample evidence that unionized LFC WN and largely non-union but legacy DL are doing just fine.

I have also consistently stated that I believe AA can and will emerge as a standalone and spurn US which is exactliy the message you don't want to hear.

 

[mistified]

I have also consistently stated that I believe AA can and will emerge as a standalone and spurn US which is exactliy the message you don't want to hear.

Back to the original intent of why I started this thread. Not because of the above statement but because:

American Airlines Management Can Get A Huge Payday If It Avoids Merging With US Airways
By Matthew Yglesias Posted Monday, Oct. 1, 2012, at 3:35 PM ET

I mentioned Monday morning that part of what's so frustrating about the self-immolation of American Airlines is that there is a better way out. US Airways wants to buy American. Many of American's creditors want a merger with US Airways. Federal anti-trust regulators seem OK with the idea of a merger with US Airways. And American's labor unions, including the pilots, have said they favor a merger and think it's the best way to keep the airline viable. But to a much greater extent than you might think, American's management doesn't seem interested in seriously exploring this resolution to their company's bankruptcy.
So thanks to Josh Koehn on Twitter for showing me this great Andrew Ross Sorkin item from July on why American's CEO is so opposed to the merger:
Mr. Horton and his management team stand to receive somewhere between $300 million and $600 million if he can make it through bankruptcy court without merging first with a rival like US Airways.
In an odd twist of the bankruptcy process, airline management teams have typically managed to extract 5 percent to 10 percent of the companys shares for themselves upon exiting Chapter 11, with the C.E.O. often getting 1 percent.
This happens, oddly enough, despite some of the same management wiping out shareholders (including themselves) by filing for Chapter 11 in the first place. AMR is expected to be valued at as much as $6 billion if it exits bankruptcy independently, analysts estimate.
Over the last several decades in the airline business, this is where C.E.O.s have gotten rich.
That CEOs can get rich this way is especially important, because in the aviation industry the old-fashioned way of getting rich by running a profitable company has rarely been on the table. Southwest consistently makes money (and not coincidentally has a good relationship with the unions representing its workers), but the rest of the industry's aggregate profits over the decades are a large negative number. In an industry like that, there are substantial incentives to spend your time trying to work the angles rather than just focusing on basic business, and that's perhaps part of what's going on here

 

[jimntx]

So what, this clown doesn't even work for DL anymore. If you don't mind him rubbing how well DL is doing in your face amidst a thread about AA being in BK, good for you. So Delta is king, take your ball and go home. I enjoy when my favorite sports team wins a championship as well, but I won't gloat about it 24/7 months and years afterwards.
Would you appreciate your neighbor boasting about how well he is doing after you just lost your job? In most cases if things are going so well, you really don't need to tell everyone about it. There is only one reason that you would, and that is for ATTENTION.
Even though 99% is negative, the poor guy is getting some.

It doesn't bother me in the least when someone makes a statement of fact. Fact: DL is doing very well. Fact #2: AMR is in bankruptcy. Whether or not I like either of those facts is immaterial. They are both still facts. Instead of getting your knickers in a twist, may I suggest that you go up to the upper right hand corner of this screen. Right next to your screen name is a small dropdown arrow. Click on that. One of the choices in the drop down will be Manage my Ignore List. Click on that. Add WorldTraveler to your ignore list. You never have to even look at, much less read, one of his posts ever again. Problem solved.

 

[Art at ISP]

Why is it that no one wants to grasp one of the basic issues here? Parker has sold the AA unions a bill of goods, and they are apparently ignoring the truth or just plain ignorant (no offense intended). I understand you hate your current management and would love to see them gone, but to take Parker and US is a mistake. He has no intention of giving you a better deal--just look at US today-the lowest paid employees in the industry, labor trouble equal to or greater than just about any other airline (7 years NO contract for pilots, and Parker is happy because he is saving money), flight attendant deal rejected, 2 pilot groups practically at war with each other...come on folks, if you think things will be better under Parker and US you are sadly mistaken.

That said, a combination might work with an entirely new management team, but I urge the AA unions to talk privately with their counterparts at US and learn the truth.

 

[FWAAA]

My goodness
US Airways has absolutely no buisness interfering in their process to emerge.

Clearly, non-interference during "exclusivity" is the L-A-W.

Good points. AA should have rammed a Non Disclosure Agreement down Doug's throat as soon as he hinted at taking over AA. Had they done so, they might have kept the attention of the APA and APFA who were off mixing it up with Parker instead of sitting down negotiating with AA management. And once Parker offered the AA unions their tentative bridge agreements (with smaller concessions than AA was demanding) it was not easy to get the APA or the APFA to do what bankruptcy law demands, and that's negotiate with their employer. What Parker did was close to tortious interference, IMO.

Parker crapped on his own employees by offering AA employees smaller concessions than those demanded by AA management all the while not bringing his employees' pay up to market standards. The APA and the APFA remind me of the woman who becomes the mistress of the older married man. She hopes that he eventually leaves his wife and marries her, without thinking down the road to her eventual replacement. HELLO, he's CHEATING on his wife with you. He's going to do it again to you not too long after fulfilling your dream, Bimbo. But the APA and the APFA were too wrapped up in themselves to notice the downtrodden US employees and the shabby treatment they received (and continue to receive to this day) at the hands of Parker, the rich older executive dreamboat.

I fully expect that AA and US eventually combine, but I predict that management (whomever it is) won't be dangling more money and bennies at the workers when that happens, but instead will be demanding more concessions. Of course, given the very low pay of US pilots and FAs, they'll be in line for smaller raises than they were hoping for but for the AA pilots and FAs, hold onto the wallets as their post-Ch 11 pay will far exceed the pay of their US counterparts.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Mr. Horton and his management team stand to receive somewhere between $300 million and $600 million if he can make it through bankruptcy court without merging first with a rival like US Airways.

And given that AA mgmt has managed to keep the wheels on the bus during the BK process despite the operational difficulties of the past year, the ongoing noise of a competitor’s desire to acquire AA, and a ongoing difficult labor environment, the likelihood is high that AA will be able to convince the creditors that a standalone plan is best. The creditors know full well that any acquisition – merger or just assets – is messy and could significantly delay their recovery.
Unless AA is unable to run at least an “average” airline, they will emerge as a standalone – and the executives will get paid.

Why is it that no one wants to grasp one of the basic issues here? Parker has sold the AA unions a bill of goods, and they are apparently ignoring the truth or just plain ignorant (no offense intended). I understand you hate your current management and would love to see them gone, but to take Parker and US is a mistake. He has no intention of giving you a better deal--just look at US today-the lowest paid employees in the industry, labor trouble equal to or greater than just about any other airline (7 years NO contract for pilots, and Parker is happy because he is saving money), flight attendant deal rejected, 2 pilot groups practically at war with each other...come on folks, if you think things will be better under Parker and US you are sadly mistaken.

That said, a combination might work with an entirely new management team, but I urge the AA unions to talk privately with their counterparts at US and learn the truth.

Very good question… again from a non-airline employee….and it shows how toxic the labor relations are at far too many US airlines that they would settle for one option which clearly is far less than ideal just to spite their current mgmt team – and keep them from getting a huge payout. No one doubts that a payout to mgmt that amounts to a huge chunk of the annual concessions is wrong but selling your own soul out to hurt someone else never makes much sense.
Further, no one is asking how much US execs are racking up in stock profits as a result of LCC’s inflated stock price, driven by expectations that many analysts have that AA and US will eventually merge which would dramatically improve US’ revenue outlook.
Parker and co. are happy to keep the idea of a merger going as long as possible since it gives them even more opportunities to cash in on LCC’s inflated stock price.

Good points. AA should have rammed a Non Disclosure Agreement down Doug's throat as soon as he hinted at taking over AA. Had they done so, they might have kept the attention of the APA and APFA who were off mixing it up with Parker instead of sitting down negotiating with AA management. And once Parker offered the AA unions their tentative bridge agreements (with smaller concessions than AA was demanding) it was not easy to get the APA or the APFA to do what bankruptcy law demands, and that's negotiate with their employer. What Parker did was close to tortious interference, IMO.

I fully expect that AA and US eventually combine, but I predict that management (whomever it is) won't be dangling more money and bennies at the workers when that happens, but instead will be demanding more concessions. Of course, given the very low pay of US pilots and FAs, they'll be in line for smaller raises than they were hoping for but for the AA pilots and FAs, hold onto the wallets as their post-Ch 11 pay will far exceed the pay of their US counterparts.

A lot of people – perhaps Parker included – fail to grasp that AA was so quick to start the merger discussions just to shut Parker up and keep him out of the negotiations between AA and its labor.
I’d like to hear your thoughts on when you think AA and US will merge if they don’t merge in BK.
Even Parker has said that the chances of making a merger work if it happens after AA emerges are slim…. AA is resizing in BK to be a standalone airline. Unless one of the two enters BK w/ the expectations of a merger, then it will be very difficult to get the costs out w/ neither carrier in BK.
Part of the reason DL-NW worked is because it seemed very apparent that the two went thru BK w/ the intention of merging after BK. Consequently, DL and NW emerged w/ lower costs than its peers as standalones and were able to maintain that advantage even after merging.
I think you fail to appreciate how quickly the competitive situation is moving and how difficult it will be to pull off a merger even a year down the road. AA is behind the competition right now; adding another year or more to the process of regaining position will only make it much more difficult to regain a competitive position since mergers are messy and take years to gain all of the financial benefits.
A lot of people don’t want to hear it but DL’s NYC buildup could not have gone better given the operational problems at UA and then AA. With 2 ½ times more seats and 3 X more destinations than AA, DL has worked aggressively to shift key accounts and passengers away from AA. There is enough public data to confirm that for those who want to see and more data will confirm that within the next few months.
UA is recovering from its operational problems quickly and is very keen to gain what it can from AA, esp. in Chicago and on the west coast. WN is moving very quickly to resolve its merger related issues and will be putting pressure on AA as well. B6 and VX along with Spirit are just as eager to grow their presence in key markets and continue to put pressure on AA – there is plenty of publicly available data to show all 3 of those carriers are having an impact on AA now.
Add in that the Wright Amendment will fall in less than two years and Open Skies will occur in most Latin America countries within the next two years and AA has no choice but to come out of BK – but the competitive situation remains very keen and the last ten years show that AA has not been very effective at holding off assaults on its network.
I’m not sure what AA needs to be able to stem those assaults in the next few months but there is no sign of it letting up… expecting that a little more time will make it any easier for AA to regain its footing seems more than a little wishful.

 

[firedougparker]

Parker crapped on his own employees by offering AA employees smaller concessions than those demanded by AA management all the while not bringing his employees' pay up to market standards. The APA and the APFA remind me of the woman who becomes the mistress of the older married man. She hopes that he eventually leaves his wife and marries her, without thinking down the road to her eventual replacement. HELLO, he's CHEATING on his wife with you. He's going to do it again to you not too long after fulfilling your dream, Bimbo. But the APA and the APFA were too wrapped up in themselves to notice the downtrodden US employees and the shabby treatment they received (and continue to receive to this day) at the hands of Parker, the rich older executive dreamboat.

Exactly. And people wonder why we are mad as heck and not going to take it anymore!

 

[johnny kat]

Firedougparker/signals:

Exactly. And people wonder why we are mad as heck and not going to take it anymore!
______________________________________________________________________

Signals/firedougparker I see you have been at it again. All sorts of comments under both your pathetic aliases. But here you are Quote "We are mad as heck and not going to take it anymore". Does the "WE" in that statement mean that you are actually in the employ of USAirways which in the past you have denied? You are one pathetic poster. At least keep up with the lies you are spewing. As I have stated before if I ever find out who you are I am going to go straight to US management and get you the hell out of here. No one can trust you on the line.

 

[mistified]

And given that AA mgmt has managed to keep the wheels on the bus during the BK process despite the operational difficulties of the past year, the ongoing noise of a competitor’s desire to acquire AA, and a ongoing difficult labor environment, the likelihood is high that AA will be able to convince the creditors that a standalone plan is best. The creditors know full well that any acquisition – merger or just assets – is messy and could significantly delay their recovery.
Unless AA is unable to run at least an “average” airline, they will emerge as a standalone – and the executives will get paid.

Yes your right. All four wheels have not come off the wagon...yet!
But that doesn't make it right. Plain and simple, excutives need to be held accountable for poor performance just like the average person. Most often they are not.
And that my friend is exactly what is wrong with this system.