Or perhaps, "Why the unionized rank and file employees at AA will never really share in the good times and will be relegated to mediocre guranteed hourly wages instead."
American Offers Pay for Performance
- Thread starter Hatu
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Or perhaps, "Why the unionized rank and file employees at AA will never really share in the good times and will be relegated to mediocre guranteed hourly wages instead."
Wrong again. History has proven time and time again that when airline employees forgo real pay increases for "non-traditional compensation" they get screwed. This is and always will be a thin margined buisiness and the bosse will never "share the good times. Their version of sharing is "A couplw of million for me and a six pack of beer for everyone else". Hell we dont have to look that far, how much have we gotten so far from our "profit sharing plan " of 2003? ZERO. How much are we likely to see over the term of the 2003 agreement/ ZERO, so now we should settle for more of the same?
If we want to profit from the companies good fortune we can take our raise , dump it in the 401K and put more into company stock.
Our best bet right now is to make sure we have OT by not working ourselves out of OT, its a lot more reliable than any of the plans of shared gain the Little and Arpey team could dream up. Certainly better than chasing a carrot on a string. With some stations up to 500 hours its doubtful that any "shared gain"plan will come close to the extra $30k they can see with OT.
The fact is the company is having trouble with the pilots and they want their lapdog TWU out of the way, so all of a sudden Jim Little decides we need "immediate relief" (funny how for the last four years we were fine according to Little) just months before things start to heat up with the pilots and FA's who are going for full restoration. Little will try to jam a two year extension through with threats to the bases.
I dont care what figure they throw on the table, I want my Holidays, Vacation, sick time, DT, PL, OMA and everything else they took plus adjusting our pay back up to where it was including COLA. Anything other than that is a NO for me.
The pilots and flight attendants are living in a dream Land if they think they have a chance at full restoration. A two year extension might not be a bad thing, with enough of a carrot attached to it. With oil topping new highs and the economy out look looking bleaker, in a couple years the state of the industry and the company might be better.
FWAA is right, until hourly workers, more specifically union workers start thinking outside the box, they will continue to be relegated to scraping the barrel. I wouldn't mind adding myself to the same plan that management has and some more stock or a retro raise based on the company performance over the previous year.
FWAA is right, until hourly workers, more specifically union workers start thinking outside the box, they will continue to be relegated to scraping the barrel. I wouldn't mind adding myself to the same plan that management has and some more stock or a retro raise based on the company performance over the previous year.
Wretched Wrench
Veteran
- Apr 21, 2003
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It's bigger than that. The ready availability of cheap labor and the lowering of hiring standards, both here and abroad, means that we will continue to lose. We have to control our population growth and then wait for wages in the Third World to rise until outsourcing overseas is no longer profitable.
It'll be a while.
Cheap labor, outsourcing, globalization, its all been here for a long time. In fact we are here in America because of world trade, Columbus was seeking a quicker way to the Indies. Ships have been bringing goods across the globe for centuries. Our demise is not inevitable.
Can they outsource line maintenance to Asia? No
Can someone in India take a bag from the belt at JFK and load it into the belly of a plane going to LAX? No.
The availabilty of Cheap labor, where it is needed, may not be as available as some would have us believe. Some jobs are more at risk than others. Jobs that require presence at a specific location are less vulnerable.
Over the last few months we have seen the company scramble through a big chunk of the recall list. The majority refused recall, or in other words, quit. The further down the list they get the less likely they will pull recalls "off the streeet". So the next time some supervisor says only a handful have quit you can remind him to add in all the recalls that quit, the picture is somewhat different then. If the company cant attract people who have time they arent going to do much better at getting people who dont have any time.(working weekends and holidays with only one week of vacation a year is not very enticing and the luster of getting an airline is long gone.
Remember NWA scraped the bottom of the barrel and still came up short. This was at a time when thousands of airline workers were relatively recently laid off. How much luck do you think AA would have trying to get thousands to replace us if we went on strike? Not much,there arent too many mechanics waiting around for jobs anymore, AA is finding that out now. There isnt anyplace that could take on not only AAs work but also the contract work that AA does. The claim that they could simply send it overseas is a myth, Aviation is expanding more rapidly outside the US than inside, they need these facilities overseas for their own aircraft.
The opportunity is there, too bad our own union would rather serve AA than the membership.
Wretched Wrench
Veteran
- Apr 21, 2003
- 1,626
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Correct, of course. But they can outsource it to the same contractors that do line maintenance for other airlines. Many of those organizations are already staffed by AA mechs working part time after their AA shift to make ends meet. Our smaller stations already have their line maintenance outsourced. The company and the TWU are always doing a soft-shoe about overnight maintenance at smaller stations. Apparently there is a secret letter of agreement or something.
Not only that, there are not near as many AMTs coming out of schools anymore. There is a lack of enrollment, and for good reason. As a result, many of the schools have either closed or dropped their AMT programs. Who's gonna drop $30k or more to go to school and come out making $15 per hour with no benefits etc.? The guys they have at these sh*tbag outfits like TIMCO are not working there as a career job. Nobody going to AMT school is saying " I'm doing this so I can work for TIMCO or TRAMCO." it's only a matter of time before their labor pool completely dries up.
TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
DITTO
Keep the OT rolling
Its more money then you will see from some BS performance pay plan
Gives us more money per hour and keep the performance plan. The hourly wage is guaranteed every week. What guarantee do you have with a performance plan.
I want some money to pay the bills not empty promises of performance pay
Show Me The Money
Well where there is no real union presence small stations are defineatly vulnerable but the larger the group the harder it is to replace them, especially when skills are involved. Do you really think AOG is prepared to take on the workload of a JFK or MIA? If that was the case then why are outfits like North American and others subbibg work out to AA? Why not just hire the much cheaper AOG?
You are right Bob. As AA goes further down the recall list, they will have a harder time to get people to return. I currently am holding a recall letter. I have been out almost 3 years and have no plans to return. I have no desire to come back and have to work vacation relief, in addition to bad days off, no raises, bad hours, bad pay, etc. Out of ten of us that have received this recall letter, so far 50% have declined. None of us have waited for AA to recall us. We moved on. There are easier ways to make a living. In my position as a recovering American Airlines employee, I encourage everyone to get out of the industry if you can. If you are thinking of an airline career, don't do it, look somewhere else.
Kinda hard for the greedy execs to deny you your due if you owned half or more of the company. Your failure (and your union's failure) to demand at least half the equity in April, 2003 sure ain't Arpey's fault. It's not management's job to negotiate for you. The 19% was a nice start, but that should have been rejected. ESOPs are bad ideas, but at UAL, the pilots and mechanics got 55% of the company when they agreed to large concessions. You losers (in the aggregate) settled for a mere 19% in exchange for your huge concessions. And that 19% was shared with the FAs (which didn't happen at UAL). And then you whine when it turns out that the execs negotiated a disproportionate reward for the turnaround. You're pissed at the execs for your failure to secure competent union representation. That's rich.
On the profit sharing, I agree with you. Even though AA is likely to make $500 million in the 3rd quarter alone, fuel is likely to decimate the 4th quarter, meaning the employees will probably get 15% of 400 million or so, or about $60 million. Nothing to get excited about.
Yep, that will work real well if you get a huge raise, which isn't likely to happen.
I thought it was "wrong" to accept OT when your fellow union brothers were furloughed. Here's what Princess said about that the other day:
I think Ken MacTiernan has recently posted that it's just plane wrong to accept any OT while your brothers are on the street. Which is it? Anyway - I agree with you. Work extra hours to make up what you lost. Doesn't do much for your quality of life, but it does pay the bills.
FA Mikey hit it on the head. AA's not having any "trouble" with the pilots. They're the ones whose huge pensions are vulnerable - and they know it. Lots of huffing and puffing by the Big Clocks pilots but it ain't gonna get them their 31% raise plus their huge signing bonus. FAs? They've got no real leverage. Even if the pilots and FAs DID have any real leverage, it's not like that matters; AA doesn't have an extra $1.62 billion a year to restore everyone's pay. AA's still constrained by that pesky profit and loss equation. Don't forget your pony.
You want it all back. Plus a raise. Understandable considering the $120k give or take the concessions have cost you. Might as well aim high. In fact, might as well demand something like UPS pay plus 5% or so. No need to lowball your opening demand.
Best of luck. With your loser union and its loser negotiators, you'll need it.
If that's accurate, that's the best news you could ever hope for. A smaller pool of A&P licensed AMTs will mean higher wages for those who remain. It's why engineers and nurses and computer science grads coming out of college have received signing bonuses and ever-higher starting salaries.
Supply and Demand at its best.
p.s. Do whatever you can to discourage guys from going to MX schools promising average wages of $58k (Westwood's favorite pitch).
T
The Goose
Guest
"AA doesn't have an extra $1.62 billion a year to restore everyone's pay. AA's still constrained by that pesky profit and loss equation."
I disagree - they have it, but don't care to spend it on the workers. They're building a war chest of cash for some purpose that's not being shared, as usual.
Perhaps if we could get some money from the same source the damned execs tapped for their bonuses, or would that tend to "dry up the cow" too quickly and be frowned upon by the largest institutional shareholders (FMR/Fidelity and DE Shaw) that keep the board of directors in place, enabling Arpey and minions?
I disagree - they have it, but don't care to spend it on the workers. They're building a war chest of cash for some purpose that's not being shared, as usual.
Perhaps if we could get some money from the same source the damned execs tapped for their bonuses, or would that tend to "dry up the cow" too quickly and be frowned upon by the largest institutional shareholders (FMR/Fidelity and DE Shaw) that keep the board of directors in place, enabling Arpey and minions?
Ok, you got me. AA does have that cash hoard which has been built up thru sales of new stock and leftover cash from operations. Not from huge profits. Notta chance AA's gonna agree to restore the wages outta that cash.
You actually don't know why it's been built up? Maybe the prospect of $100/bbl oil? The fear of another huge disruption like the SARS disaster? The very real possibility that Pacific routes might have become available when UA and NW were in Ch 11 (admitedly less likely now)? That's just some of the reasons. When you're laid off, do you tap your savings to give your kids an increase in their allowances? I wouldn't, and Arpey's not gonna spend that cash on wages. Time for a reality check.
That would be stock bonuses, genius, but nearly everyone posting here says they don't want a variable comp plan based on stock payouts. They think they'll get their wages restored to pre-concession levels. Good luck with that.
Let's say you guys do get tough and eventually are released to exercise your rights of self-help. AA hires firms in Alabama, SAL, SIN, HKG, PVG, etc., for heavy airframe overhaul. Do you really think those thousands of suddenly displaced AMTs in Tulsa, Fort Worth and Kansas City won't eventually find their way to JFK and MIA and the other large line maintenance stations and pick up some of the slack?
Looks to me like AA could make quick work of your claimed shortage of AMTs. Lotsa mechanics with families to support. Or do none of those guys have the skills to work the line?
You might have a better gig in the wings but are you confident that all those other guys have something better to do that pays more than $60k?
Of course, if you did have something else to do, I'm amazed that you've continued to work for substandard wages for 4+ years instead of pursuing it.
