American M & E Working Together Toward Profits

[Hackman]

So there was a settlement secured by the representing officer of the TWU for this grievant?

Sound judgement. Saved the TWU some money

Really, you don't know. So can it.

 

[Bill]

The twu and its blind followers don't want a debate unless they can stack the deck. That's been proven. I know you don't like debating me or anyone else who isn't swallowing the twu goo. The truth and the past history is a killer for you and twu. Crude actions and third grade dialect you cry about is a twu bubba believer trademark. Really now, who is kidding who here Billybob?? Don't you remember the twu....Coffins, bomb threats, 514 fist fights between twu officers at the hall, convicted felons, druggies, multiple DWI officer drunks in the twu International, a 514 President attempts to run people over he dislikes with his vehicle, twu believers calling others scabs that have never crossed a picket line and never will. Need I go on??? No, I'll stop here.

I don't expect the twu to get back our massive concessions given away Billy, those are long gone more than likely. I do expect my union to fight for its members, and not sellout at every turn at some point in time. Asking for too much there. The twu humorously demanded "Show Us The Shared Sacrifice" to Mr. Our-pay a while back. Even had new twu slogan shirts made up. Well, we are still waiting!!!! Probably will be for the rest of our lives. When the big management money grab happened and the rest of the unions pulled out of the; "We Pull, while Management Wins" program. Not the twu, still gotta be a twu true wanna-believer.

The sad thing is, your being duped and you either don't care or your just too dumb to see it. The current useless programs are failing, and they are being rejected by a majority of the rank and file, except the twu wanna-believers involved in them. Go to the floor and ask what the average mechanics think. I don't think you'll like the answers. Especially on the MD-80 Pulse Line. Why did the reporters that wrote the maintenance article only get to talk to "certain people"??? I think I know why.

As far as Burdchette goes, I didn't quote anything he's said, it would be a waste of space. He'll be in management as soon as he gets voted out of office. I could really care less.

As far as those grievances that were won... they didn't get won by a twu bubba believer, I'll say that. :unsure:

And yet once again, you have proven my point. Rude, crude and socially unacceptable!!! :huh:

You believe what you want Hackman because you obviously don't want to hear (or see) anything else.

Oh, you never said what you thought a new union would do for us. You're so hell bent to get the TWU out. Tell Hackman in all your wisdom....what will we get with a new union?

Really, you don't know. So can it.

Oh, but we can find out!!!

 

[Bill]

This is what is going to happen if the PLI,CI is allowed to continue.

I took you as more classy than this Princess. Showing a picture of hundreds of dead people (was it Jim Jones cult???) Was this a picture you had stored in your archives???

My image of you is shattered.

I had this conversation with some AFWers doing some engine work on a UPS 757 that was in our hangar. A UPS AMT was present when we discussed the fact the AA's AMT's are willing to work for such low wages, that it allows them to pick up contract work from carriers such as UPS which pay a substanial amount more money to their mechanics. At this point I was getting the "huh" look from the AFWers when the UPS AMT mentioned that they have been told that the same 18% pay increase their pilots got is on the table in their current talks, but the language still needs to be worked out. Considering they are at $43 an hour, the 18% would put them over $50 an hour or about $20 more than an AA AMT. So I suggested to the AFWers, that since our generosity has led to the substanial wages that UPS AMT's now enjoy, why don't we give back $10 more an hour so we can do China Airs heavy maintenance, and maybe even increase the dues base for the twu.

The spin cycle continues. <_< We started this by arguing whether the TWU's success in insourcing work when everyone is outsourcing it is really a bad thing. Then "limit" tries to spin a quote from Burchette about insourcing work into a secret agreement to allow work to be outsourced. Now all of a sudden we're talking about UPS.

Amfaman, I just happen to know something about UPS. It makes a billion a quarter. It outsources all of its heavy maintenance and, last I checked, had less than 2000 AMTs, but almost ten thousand applications on file for any AMT openings. Now I read the same people who were telling us "your strength is in your skill" and "the unskilled are dragging you down" telling us about the 43 dollar rate negotiated by the IBT at UPS. I had the chance to talk with a UPS mechanic and asked him how he thought they got that pay, especially after when so much work had, apparently, been successfully outsourced in the passenger side of the industry. He had also been a driver and a loader and he made no bones about where their leverage came from-- "because any picket line we set up will be honored by 220,000 drivers and loaders".

As for the idea that our pay and benefits (which rank third in the passenger industry) now allow us to compete with non-union MROs, you better check the pay and benefits at those places (I have many friends that work there)--it is approximately half the compensation package at American. Competition with MROs is a fact of life not because of anything the TWU did, but because of the success UAL, ASA, NWA, and DAL have had in wiping out the bulk of their maintenance operations and sending them to domestic and foreign vendors, whose operations have expanded everywhere. Spin all you like, but we either put together a more productive and better quality operation or there is no long term future.

 

[Kev3188]

I had the chance to talk with a UPS mechanic and asked him how he thought they got that pay, especially after when so much work had, apparently, been successfully outsourced in the passenger side of the industry. He had also been a driver and a loader and he made no bones about where their leverage came from-- "because any picket line we set up will be honored by 220,000 drivers and loaders".

All the more reason to go Teamsters.

 

[eolesen]

It appears that the worst case scenario for the perpetually bitter malcontents is now unfolding --- all of the overhaul base jobs and a majority of the line jobs are being preserved, and the PLI process might actually be working and nobody is taking paycuts.

What I find ironic in all this is that during the last AMFA/TWU representation drive, Dave Stewart and others used to complain to no end about fear, uncertainty, and doubt being used against his cause. Now, his like-minded malcontents seem to be doing a full-court press of FUD to support their cause....

 

[Bill]

It appears that the worst case scenario for the perpetually bitter malcontents is now unfolding --- all of the overhaul base jobs and a majority of the line jobs are being preserved, and the PLI process might actually be working and nobody is taking paycuts.

What I find ironic in all this is that during the last AMFA/TWU representation drive, Dave Stewart and others used to complain to no end about fear, uncertainty, and doubt being used against his cause. Now, his like-minded malcontents seem to be doing a full-court press of FUD to support their cause....

They can't stand the fact that what we are doing is working. Plain and simple. They want to pull out their history books to attempt to prove a point.

War of words my friend.

 

[aafsc]

I don't know how anyone can compare a passenger airline and a cargo airline like UPS and Fed Ex.

1. Cargo airlines like UPS and Fed Ex have had no problem increasing their prices whenever fuel has gone up.

2. There are only three relatively well known cargo airlines (UPS, Fed EX, and DHL) when compared to many passenger airlines. Therefore, price competition among the three cargo carriers is nowhere near that of passenger carriers.

3. Fed Ex and UPS (especially UPS) are EXTREMEMLY efficient operationally.

4. The very nature of Fed EX and UPS themselves allow for maximizing revenue per flight. For example, when a passenger purchases a $150 ticket, that passenger purchases a given quantity of space on an airplane. His/her body physically occupies space on an airplane along with the seat that they are sitting in. They are also using an overhead bin and their luggage is occupping space in the belly below. Also, the galleys and lavs are there for their use; all this for $150. The seats, galleys, and lavs also cost the airline money in terms of fuel; these items have a certain weight and as we all know more weight= more fuel.
Fed Ex and UPS has only 1 lav for the pilots, no galley (or maybe a small one for the pilots, I'm not sure) no seats, no overhead bins. And most important of all, every inch of the main cabin and belly is filled with PAYING packages.
I have seen the igloo containers that Fed Ex and UPS use for their packages that go on the main decks of their aircraft. I estimate that it takes up about 3 rows of seats; that is about 18 people on a passenger airline. 18 X $150 ticket price=$2,700 in revenue. The cargo igloo can lets say hold 300 standard small boxes (and this is a very conservative estimate) 300 boxes X lets say $30 per box= $9,000 in revenue. So UPS and Fed EX generate more than three times the revenue on the upper deck alone in addition to what they generate in the lower belly. The also fly thier planes less meaning less cycles thus less maintenance and fuel costs.

5. They outsource all heavy maintenance to the low paying third party shops and have less than 2,000 mechanics for their world wide fleets.

In reference to the items listed above, there is NO WAY AA can afford to pay it's AMTs what UPS pays theirs. Their inherent efficiency as a cargo airline is much greater than a passenger airline. You can't compare apples to oranges. Fed Ex people can compare themselves to UPS people. AA people can compare themselves to their counterparts at the other legacies. But look at the bright side, you could have ended up as a mechanic at UA, US, DL, CO, NW, EA, PA, TW or BN, all of whom have been raped at one time or another and make less.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----aa Buddy!!! Where have you been? Did you hear about the second exTWA/exSTL/fsc law suit? I don't have all the details, but it has something to do with who's protected, and who's not! And the suit is out of Florida! That's all I know about it for now! And as far as I know, the Mich. law suit is supposed to go to Jury next month!!!!

 

[eolesen]

3. Fed Ex and UPS (especially UPS) are EXTREMEMLY efficient operationally.

Agree with everything else you've mentioned, except for this.

Effecient reputation? Absolutely.

Effecient flight ops? Positively.

Reliable? They mishandle or damage about 2-3% of their shipments.

Translate that into baggage rates, and that would be equal to 20 to 30 tracers per 1000 bags handled, and historically, most AA stations had mishandling rates at or below 5 per thousand, and the hubs are roughly double that at 10 per thousand, which is still better than FDX....

 

[AMFAMAN]

I don't know how anyone can compare a passenger airline and a cargo airline like UPS and Fed Ex.

Funny, but it was the UPS CEO years back that said to his pilots that you can't compare cargo with passenger airlines, because with passengers come an increase in responsibility. But it is okay for fleet service to be paid as much or even more than the cargo carriers.

They outsource all heavy maintenance to the low paying third party shops and have less than 2,000 mechanics for their world wide fleets.

If your numbers are correct, and based on their current fleet size of 268 aircraft on their website, UPS has a much higher line mechanic to aircraft ratio then AA.

there is NO WAY AA can afford to pay it's AMTs what UPS pays theirs.

Actually, what you meant to say is that there is no way the fleet service/tulsa controlled twu would allow it.

What is the difference in salary between a AA baggage handler and a package handler at UPS? You tell me, UPS's package handler salary is below.

Starting pay: $8.50 to $9.50 per hour
Up to $12.25/hr in four years

 

[aafsc]

<_< -----aa Buddy!!! Where have you been? Did you hear about the second exTWA/exSTL/fsc law suit? I don't have all the details, but it has something to do with who's protected, and who's not! And the suit is out of Florida! That's all I know about it for now! And as far as I know, the Mich. law suit is supposed to go to Jury next month!!!!

If I understand the situation correctly, the lawsuit in RSW is the result of an arbitrator (not Kasher) ruling against a grievance filed by an ex-twaer. There was only a small amount of information on a website that is no longer running. It is yet another futile attempt by some ex-twaers to take what is not theirs; their time would be better spent drinking whiskey and smoking marijuana.

 

[Hackman]

And yet once again, you have proven my point. Rude, crude and socially unacceptable!!! :huh:

You believe what you want Hackman because you obviously don't want to hear (or see) anything else.

Oh, you never said what you thought a new union would do for us. You're so hell bent to get the TWU out. Tell Hackman in all your wisdom....what will we get with a new union?
Oh, but we can find out!!!

Jeezus Billybob, you cry like that hypocrite power-dyke Rosie O'Donnel. Didn't you read my very short list of twu behavioral patterns that made you clowns infamous??? h34r: :blink: You really should stop with the crocodile tears, they are staining your twu slogan shirt and some might think you really are twelve years old.

For your simplistic question; What would a new union do for us? Sheesh....Where do I start Billy?? Does this BB have the room?? Well, a big one for me is being able to vote on International officers, thus keeping out former/current manAAgement like Jimmy Do-Little. This might also keep out criminals and substance abusers as "leaders", which would be nice. Another might be finally stopping the 20+ year history of twu sellouts and concessions.

....and let us know what you find on that reverser case Billdo. I need another good laugh where your concerned.

 

[Bill]

Funny, but it was the UPS CEO years back that said to his pilots that you can't compare cargo with passenger airlines, because with passengers come an increase in responsibility. But it is okay for fleet service to be paid as much or even more than the cargo carriers.
If your numbers are correct, and based on their current fleet size of 268 aircraft on their website, UPS has a much higher line mechanic to aircraft ratio then AA.
Actually, what you meant to say is that there is no way the fleet service/tulsa controlled twu would allow it.
What is the difference in salary between a AA baggage handler and a package handler at UPS? You tell me, UPS's package handler salary is below.

Starting pay: $8.50 to $9.50 per hour
Up to $12.25/hr in four years

No, I stand by what I say.

The scenario you are trying to create is like comparing apples to oranges Amfaman. You can't compare AA to UPS. You steered this conversation at AMT salaries, not baggage/package handlers.

Jeezus Billybob, you cry like that hypocrite power-dyke Rosie O'Donnel. Didn't you read the short list of twu behavioral patterns that made you clowns infamous??? h34r: :blink: You really should stop with the crocodile tears, they are staining your twu slogan shirt and some might think you really are twelve years old.

For your simplistic question; What would a new union do for us? Sheesh....Where do I start Billy?? Does this BB have the room?? Well, a big one for me is being able to vote on International officers, thus keeping out former/current manAAgement like Jimmy Do-Little. This might also keep out criminals and substance abusers as "leaders", which would be nice. Another might be finally stopping the 20+ year history of twu sellouts and concessions.

....and let us know what you find on that reverser case Billdo. I need another good laugh where your concerned.

Is that it?????? That's all you got Hackman????? New internat'l officers??????

Oh my!!

 

[Hackman]

No, I stand by what I say.

The scenario you are trying to create is like comparing apples to oranges Amfaman. You can't compare AA to UPS. You steered this conversation at AMT salaries, not baggage/package handlers.

Is that it?????? That's all you got Hackman????? New internat'l officers??????

Oh my!!

Like I said Billdo, this BB isn't big enough. Its a subject thats be hashed and rehashed for years with twu bubba believers. In addition, your in Tulsa. This means making you think outside of Tulsa, and about others in the system besides yourselves. More than likely, an impossible lost cause.

Also I don't have the time, I'd be like talking to a twu light switch in the off position. Oh my is right.... :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

[aafsc]

Funny, but it was the UPS CEO years back that said to his pilots that you can't compare cargo with passenger airlines, because with passengers come an increase in responsibility. But it is okay for fleet service to be paid as much or even more than the cargo carriers.
If your numbers are correct, and based on their current fleet size of 268 aircraft on their website, UPS has a much higher line mechanic to aircraft ratio then AA.
Actually, what you meant to say is that there is no way the fleet service/tulsa controlled twu would allow it.

What is the difference in salary between a AA baggage handler and a package handler at UPS? You tell me, UPS's package handler salary is below.

Starting pay: $8.50 to $9.50 per hour
Up to $12.25/hr in four years

1. How many years ago did he say this? I beleive UPS started their air division in the 1980s. As I posted earlier, there is very little competition in the package delivery industry as where the airline industry has had many new entrants in addition to those legacies that have used the bankruptcy courts to toss out their contracts. The pilots at the passenger airlines have dramatically and continually agreed to work for less and less for fear of losing thier jobs. The pushed themselves below FedEx and UPS rates. Additionally, the fact the that UPS employs over 200,000 unionized "unskilled" truck drives and "box smashers" has kept the UPS pilot and AMT compensation among the highest. Remember a few years ago when the pilots at Fed Ex were going to strike? What happened? Fed Ex management lined up other cargo lines to fly the freight. Why could Fed EX do this? Because their drivers and loaders are non-union and thus could not honor an ALPA picket line at Fed Ex, so the freight would still be moving. Compare this to when the UPS pilots threatend to strike; they got support from the "unskilled". It is ironic how everyone says that the unskilled ride the coattails of the other groups but yet at UPS the opposite is true. If the "unskilled" continued to work at UPS during a pilot or AMT strike, UPS could very easily replace the relatively small number of AMTs and pilots. UPS could never replace over 200,000 truckers and loaders but could replace the roughly 4,000 pilots and AMTs.Why do you think that the AMTS or pilots at UPS would never dare to cross the truckers and loaders picket line?

UPS package handlers work in the warehouses away from the airport. Yes, they make around $8.50 and hour to start. I know someone who has worked there for about 20 years and I believe he makes the same or more than a topped out FSC. I will try to find out exactly what he makes. In our contract the starting rate for fleetservice is $8.38 an hour and $10.14 an hour after 4 years. I talked to a UPS employee at MIA and he said they farm out their aircraft loading and said that the people start at $12 an hour. I also know someone who works at FedEx in MIA and started there on the ramp at $12 an hour. So starting pay is about $2 hr higher at FedEx and UPS (AA had to raise the staritng wage in MIA to $10.22/ hr because they could not get anyone at $8.38/hr.
The bottom line is that Fed Ex and UPS can pay more because they are extremely profitable due to lack of competition and the ability to price their product accordingly. As to where the passenger side is very cyclical, very competitve, not able to price their product correctly, and where one carrier undercuts another in terms of compensation.