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American Airlines, pilots hit snag on contract
- Thread starter Hatu
- Start date
They overreached alright. What remains to be seen is even when they do settle with the pilots how will AA perform? Do you think that all the problems that AA has seen is because pilots are reporting defects some claim they dont have to? Reporting the problem isnt what causes the delays and cancellations, its addressing the problems that causes the delays and cancellations. Do you think that AA's 54+ year old mechanics (on average) who have lost Vacation, sick time,retiree medical, company paid medical, have seen their real incomes plummet by over 50%, lost their pensions, had a deal imposed on them by guys living in a super low cost area of the country and are treated like crap are going to give it their all in all sorts of weather to find solutions as fast as possible? Or just continue show up because they dont want to start a new career in their mid 50s and bide their time, cover their buts, watch the clock, and not really care when or whether the plane leaves?
AAs problems are not just with the pilots. Line Maintenance rejected the deal by a higher margin than the pilots rejected their deal. 75% of Line Maintenance had a deal imposed on them, just like the pilots. They have no chance of getting a decent deal at AA and too old to start somewhere else and this deal is locked in till at least 2017. AA is going to learn that a defeated workforce does not make a successful company.
The young will leave, the old will continue to show up, but never give AA what they used to. Why would the young stay? There is no future at AA. The MTA is posting openings all the time and other carriers are hiring. Just the medical benefits alone make the move economically worthwhile. At AA if you use $10,000 worth of medical services you will end up paying between $7500 to $9000 in medical expenses (including the coverage), if you get really ill you could easily lay out around $14,000, at the MTA you would pay less than $500. Thats worth between $5 and $7/hr right there. Throw in the pension, Holidays(twice as many at double time instead of half pay), vacation (4 weeks after three years-you would need 20 years at AA) , sick time, and early retirement and its a no brainer. In two to three years AA will be full of kids out of schools who dont know anything and bitter old men that wont teach them anything. Why should they bother, by the time the kids become proficient they will be gone, either to other carriers or other industries, they will realize that working nights and Holidays for what AA is offering isnt worth it. We saw that in the late 80s. AA will be like Pan Am was in its final days.
777 / 767 / 757 Love
Advanced
- Jan 26, 2012
- 204
- 188
+100000.....couldn't agree with you more on this point. They just say two carry-ons. So if you have 2 bags that are both at the maximum size, you are good but if you have 3 bags that are 1x1, you have to check one: I'm dead serious on this one. I was coming back from PVG thru ORD to PHL and on the PVG-ORD leg I had a back-pack and two plastic bags (think paper bag from a supermarket size on one, with the other being smaller) with gifts from collegues in China (it was right around the holidays) and they let me right on. Let me reiterate, I was not the only one with the same situation, in fact they were two of us sitting in 1st class that had that with no issues.
We both get to the Domestic security in ORD, and suddenly they stopped us and said you have to check one of the bags. While me and this other guy were held up, this woman with a HUGE laptop bag and BIG roller (think bigger than the crew type rollers) walked right by. Each of us could have fit our three backs in HALF the space, and would easily fit in the RJ running us to Philly. That women's bags were only going fit in a 777 overhead, and take up more than half a bin.......yet we were stopped. She had been on our PVG-ORD flight and in coach (saw her waiting in line to get on the plane). I just sighed and began trying to figure what I would do so the fragile stuff would not be broken.......the other guy, not so much. He just stopped, look at the other women with the big bags who was allowed to pass and said "Your f***ing kidding me, right? I paid 8k for this tix, then AA didn't have a problem with me on the first leg, but now its a problem?".
Understand this guy was the nicest guy on the flight from PVG, I'm talking chatting with the FAs, smiling.....bascially a great passenger, so I was FLOORED by his reaction because his demeanor for the previous 15 hours was SO far from that. So the women tried to explain the rules, and he asked for an explanation regarding why someone with bags taking up TWICE the space was allowed to pass and why AA said he was good to go on the first leg? At this point security walked up and said "Sir, do....." and before the security guy could finish, the guy quickly turned to him and just quipped "Go f**k yourself." I just started laughing, finally, someone pointed out the ridiculouness of something I see every day (hence why I check all my bags except a backpack with my work stuff) and was tired of being bullied by the system. Just never in a million years thought this would be the guy.
Ultimately, the guy made our flight, and again was calm as can be on the flight. But when he walked on the plane I looked at him and smiled while shaking my head and he said "I'm sorry if that scene ruined your day. My apologies for my reaction, I'm just tired of getting screwed by the system and the inconsistencies of it. The one time I needed some help, I get sh*t on". I told him he was 1000% correct and not to worry, and thanked him for having the balls to let them know enough is enough.
Long, long story, but thought it might ring familiar for some. Worst part is, the poor employee was not the problem even though she got the brunt of the anger, its the policies of the airline. If instead of charging for checked bags, they charged for carry-ons, the issues would disappear
I believe you should get 1 free personal (pocket book, back-pack, laptop case) carry-on, the second one or a big of larger size they should charge.Sorry for the rant guys and gals
Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757
Kev3188
Veteran
Another +100000 here...
Here's the deal; with most every carrier now charging for luggage, people are willing to gamble. Worst case scenario, they get stopped at the gate (or door to the A/C), and have to check it. Either way, they've dodged the baggage fee. So now, not only do you have a logistics issue, you also have customer service & revenue leakage issues as well.
Here's the deal; with most every carrier now charging for luggage, people are willing to gamble. Worst case scenario, they get stopped at the gate (or door to the A/C), and have to check it. Either way, they've dodged the baggage fee. So now, not only do you have a logistics issue, you also have customer service & revenue leakage issues as well.
I don't understand why the airlines haven't picked up on this. Seems gate checking bags are regular occurrences at BOS and MIA for AA, they should be charging the people for them. A premium should be charged to 1) discourage the behavior 2) reflect the added cost and delay to departure time it imposes on ramp and gate agents. The agents at AA seem to encourage it, just before boarding they make an announcement inviting people to bring items forward, and there are no scales at the gates and rarely see them use the bag sizers. Kev, what happened to the carry on tag bags DL used to use? Haven't seen them in ages.
Josh
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #22
The whole idea of the bag sizers at the gates that most US carriers have was supposed to stop stuffing two smaller bags into one to meet the limit on the number of bags but completely violate the size limits.
Unfortunately, few US carriers enforce the size limits they established w/ the sizers, in part because the overhead bins on most aircraft are large enough to hold fairly large bags.
Add in that carriers use early boarding as an incentive for elite passengers to ensure they can find space on board and it usually is the last boarding, often leisure or connecting passengers that are forced to gate check bags.
Keep in mind also that US carriers allow much more in carry-ons because it not only eliminates the possibility of theft or damage to bags, reduces time at the arrival city which passengers like, but it also reduces ramp costs since fewer bags are checked than would be checked in other countries.
Given that legacy carriers already have a reputation for charging for bags in the first place, it is easier to create exceptions and turn their head to avoid seeing part of the real problem than to have to play round 2 of bad guy, esp. with some of the passengers who might be the most loyal.
Unfortunately, few US carriers enforce the size limits they established w/ the sizers, in part because the overhead bins on most aircraft are large enough to hold fairly large bags.
Add in that carriers use early boarding as an incentive for elite passengers to ensure they can find space on board and it usually is the last boarding, often leisure or connecting passengers that are forced to gate check bags.
Keep in mind also that US carriers allow much more in carry-ons because it not only eliminates the possibility of theft or damage to bags, reduces time at the arrival city which passengers like, but it also reduces ramp costs since fewer bags are checked than would be checked in other countries.
Given that legacy carriers already have a reputation for charging for bags in the first place, it is easier to create exceptions and turn their head to avoid seeing part of the real problem than to have to play round 2 of bad guy, esp. with some of the passengers who might be the most loyal.
Kev3188
Veteran
You'd think it'd be a priority; especially given how much bag fees contribute to a carrier's ancillary revenue...
Can't speak for the entire system, but in my experience, a couple factors are in play:
1. With the growth of home check in, many people never stop by the counter-even to use an SSD. That's one hurdle the "gambler" has cleared.
2. We have agents in the lobby, but they are often unwilling (for whatever reason) to tell someone their bag needs to be checked.
3. The TSA lets a lot of bags go by that should never make it into the screening line. I totally get that it's not really their job to enforce any given carrier's policies. I'm just saying it's another link in the chain.
4. Inconsistent application of policies among stations. Once an exception has been made, it becomes an expectation. If you (general sense) got through in say, DEN, why shouldn't the same thing happen in MIA? 757's example is on the far end, but that same conversation in essence takes place 1000's of times daily.
4A. I work in a station that sees the same core people flying week in/week out. They now assume they can get away without checking things. Their expectation is that they will never have to check anything no matter what (and these people all have high enough status that the fees are waived). That's all well and good, except that since everyone else is doing it, they're stuck. They're pissed (customer service), our workload & pressure for an ontime departure has increased (logistics), and everyone is frazzled.
5. A lot of formerly M/L flying shifted to CRJ's. What may have fit before no longer does. Add to that inconsistency of policies between feeder airlines, and it can be a mess. With the pulldown of 50 seat flying, it may abate somewhat, but the CRJ-700/900's aren't much better, and since LF's will be higher than ever, well... That said, I consistently see ~25-30 gate checks on M/L planes. IMO, it's a clear sign the system isn't working.
BTW, The handwritten tags have been replaced with handheld bag tag printers in most places. For a very short time leading up to the merger, we had "regular" bag tag printers at the gate podiums, along with the ability to charge on the spot. Not sure why that can't be added back in if the other steps up to that point have failed.
P.S. Our sizers are fairly dusty...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #24
well said, Kev.
The key points remains that there is a lack of consistency due to exceptions being granted for some elite flyers which can clearly be seen by other passengers.
It is noteworthy that DL on int'l flights and other carriers in other parts of the world are far more aggressive on carry-on baggage not only because the potential revenue to be gained is far greater and thus the attempts to try to cheat the system are far more aggressive.
Given that the growth of bag fees at network carriers has largely plateaued, they are looking to other means to generate revenue, esp. as they compete domestically with WN who seems to be holding to its no checked bag fee policy.
For airlines like Spirit, their customers understand fully that they will be forced to pay for everything they carry either in the cabin or as checked luggage.
The US network carriers are comfortable taking a domestic policy somewhere between airlines in other countries who like Spirit aggressively police carry on bags and the no bag fee policy of WN which undoubtedly provides an incentive for many customers to check what they probably would carry on if they were flying a domestic network/legacy carrier.
And to Bob's point, a demoralized and stretched workforce will find it increasingly NOT in their interest to enforce policies which only make their job harder w/o providing any real benefit to them in return.
The key points remains that there is a lack of consistency due to exceptions being granted for some elite flyers which can clearly be seen by other passengers.
It is noteworthy that DL on int'l flights and other carriers in other parts of the world are far more aggressive on carry-on baggage not only because the potential revenue to be gained is far greater and thus the attempts to try to cheat the system are far more aggressive.
Given that the growth of bag fees at network carriers has largely plateaued, they are looking to other means to generate revenue, esp. as they compete domestically with WN who seems to be holding to its no checked bag fee policy.
For airlines like Spirit, their customers understand fully that they will be forced to pay for everything they carry either in the cabin or as checked luggage.
The US network carriers are comfortable taking a domestic policy somewhere between airlines in other countries who like Spirit aggressively police carry on bags and the no bag fee policy of WN which undoubtedly provides an incentive for many customers to check what they probably would carry on if they were flying a domestic network/legacy carrier.
And to Bob's point, a demoralized and stretched workforce will find it increasingly NOT in their interest to enforce policies which only make their job harder w/o providing any real benefit to them in return.
Thanks, Kev great post. One more question-DL seems to be inconsistent on RJ plane side checked being collected at baggage claim NOT plane side at your destination. Happened at YYZ (CRJ 200) several months back, don't think this is YYZ or international specific, whenever I fly Eagle to YYZ they don't do this nor do Eagle routes to Mexico.
Josh
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
There may be a couple of reason that happens:
1. The flight's late (where you started) and everything's is just loaded in the back to save time. At the next stop, it becomes a "quick turn," and everything inbound is taken to claim to save time (clear out the jetway, start boarding again, etc.).
2. The elevator at the gate for the carts is broken, and mgmt. may discourage pulling a belt loader up to the jetway.
2A. The gate being used may not have an elevator at all.
3. The ramp is stretched too thin staffing-wise to bring them up.
1. The flight's late (where you started) and everything's is just loaded in the back to save time. At the next stop, it becomes a "quick turn," and everything inbound is taken to claim to save time (clear out the jetway, start boarding again, etc.).
2. The elevator at the gate for the carts is broken, and mgmt. may discourage pulling a belt loader up to the jetway.
2A. The gate being used may not have an elevator at all.
3. The ramp is stretched too thin staffing-wise to bring them up.
