Company serves up crap offers to pilots

[Super FLUF]

I do think we go down the bk drain by this time next year if the pilots don't get their act together and agree to a contract by then.

Oh yes, if only the pilots would just slit their own throats, agree to a pay cut and layoffs by the thousands.

It's all so simple!

Why don't the pilots just agree to this??! I JUST DON'T GET IT!

 

[RevThruster]

No chance. Would anyone really embrace old Douggie boy to be our leader?

I do think we go down the bk drain by this time next year if the pilots don't get their act together and agree to a contract by then.

Frontline, you are sorely mistaking. When you are in BK, you never know who will end up at the helm of your company, it MAY VERY WELL BE Doug Parker. In your (AA's) current state, that wouldn't be such a bad thing, considering USAIRWAYS is valued at more than AA is right now, and they (US) is not bleeding money like AA is right now. AA could very well be sold off in parts as well. EVEN if the pilots (and all other work groups) agree to a contract in the near future - unless it contains SIGNIGFICANT work rule concessions, you will be in the same or worse position. It doesn't matter who you want to embrace or not - that is what you must realize, your opinion REALLY doesn't matter, not even a fraction of an ounce, because it is way, way, way beyond your control and reach.

 

[FWAAA]

Once again, to be clear, "NONE OF THE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR EXECUTIVES AT AA, WHOSE JOB IT IS TO FORECAST SUCH THINGS saw fuel prices spiking." The other airlines seem to be dealing with the problem quite fine.

Those other airlines (AA's legacy competitors) reduced their labor costs in their bankruptcies far more than AA did in 2003. Easy to pay very high prices for fuel when the employees don't cost as much as AA employees do. One example: DL pilots took concessions worth $1.3 billion before and during DL's bankruptcy, almost as much as the total of all AA unionized workgroup concessions of $1.62 billion.

When you say "spending cash on the employees" I am wondering who this is that is getting the cash spent on them. AA is currently enjoying a 30% discount on pilots right now compared to their LOW COST competitors.

I don't think that's accurate. AA has asked for a new B scale which would permit it to fly A319s for perhaps 30% less than Spirit pays all of its captains, including A319s, A320s and A321s. Right now, AA's pilot costs are the highest in the industry, both on a block hour cost and cost per ASM.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Those other airlines (AA's legacy competitors) reduced their labor costs in their bankruptcies far more than AA did in 2003. Easy to pay very high prices for fuel when the employees don't cost as much as AA employees do. One example: DL pilots took concessions worth $1.3 billion before and during DL's bankruptcy, almost as much as the total of all AA unionized workgroup concessions of $1.62 billion.



I don't think that's accurate. AA has asked for a new B scale which would permit it to fly A319s for perhaps 30% less than Spirit pays all of its captains, including A319s, A320s and A321s. Right now, AA's pilot costs are the highest in the industry, both on a block hour cost and cost per ASM.

except. FWAAA, you seem to keep wanting to forget that DL gave up billions in dollars to the PBGC and to the pilots group (far more than AA employees' 2003 concessions) directly in order to compensate them for the termination of the DL pilot pension plan.
The sole reason the pilot pension plan was terminated and the others were not is because the pilot pension plan contained a lump sum payout feature than made it impossible for DL to continue to shovel in the cash necessary to fund the lump sum component of the pension plans. But DL paid plenty for terminating those pension plans which is why they didn't terminate any more plans than they had to.
None of the DL or NW pension plans have that feature, those plans were not terminated and those pension plans remain as DL liabilities with DL paying more each year to fund its FROZEN pension plans than AA does to fund its active plans - and DL still funds defined contribution retirement plans for its active employees.
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I'm not sure how you come up w/ your 2nd statement about AA pilot costs but there isn't a single category in which DL pilots make less than their AA counterparts - so I don't know how AA's pilots are the highest paid unless there is some inefficiencies in the AA pilot contract that puts them at some disadvantage to DL - who incidentally has more fleet types than AA and thus potentially more movement. And when you factor in the profit sharing that DL is paying, the actual rate that DL is paying for pilot labor is 10% or more higher than any AA category.
And DL pilots are getting a pay raise in a couple weeks and the rate of the company's contribution to their retirement plans is increasing as well. IN the meantime, DL continues to post profits and the pilots also benefit from profit sharing.
When you consider that WN pilots make more on comparable equipment than DL pilots - who are the highest paid in the network carrier segment - then I'm not sure how you can possibly say that AA's pilot costs are higher than anyone else - unless AA is not using its resources efficiently.
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And note that none of AA's network competitors have a B scale for the 319, in fact industry practice is to pay the 320 and 319 pilots the same amount. Only US' rate for east 320 and 190 pilots is lower than what AA is asking for on the 319.
And no one other network carrier's pilot agreement allows unlimited domestic codesharing as AA is asking for.
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Perhaps it is because the APA and its members have their eyes focused on the top of the industry rather than the bottom that they continue to believe that what the company is offering is clearly substandard.
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The pilots may be forced to agree to a concessionary contract in BK but at least the chances of removing the current management team is much higher which might make it far more likely they would recover some of what they will be forced to give up - unless of course US succeeds in acquiring AA in which case AA and US pilots will all be permanently stuck at the bottom of the industry.
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Most AA pilots would rather ride what they have out as long as they can, take the risk with a judge, hope for recovery, and then if AA can't be turned around at least hope that enough of AA's assets and employees are acquired by a company that can make money and still pay its employees wages comparable to if not higher than what AA is paying now.

 

[Strake]

Most AA pilots would rather ride what they have out as long as they can, take the risk with a judge, hope for recovery, and then if AA can't be turned around at least hope that enough of AA's assets and employees are acquired by a company that can make money and still pay its employees wages comparable to if not higher than what AA is paying now.

We could only hope.

 

[Super FLUF]

AA 737 CA - $166/hr.

DL (Bankruptcy wages) 737 CA $174/hr.

SWA 737 CA - $210/hr.

FedEx 727 CA - $218/hr.

UPS (all equip) CA - $252/hr.

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JBLU A320 CA - $159/hr., then $238/hr. over 78 hrs

Spirit A320 CA - $164/hr.



Before anyone starts popping off about our "rich' retirement account you had better start checking into what the bankrupt carriers got. Even Delta got a generous C fund and they are surpassing us in pay.

Restore or restructure, concession stand closed.

 

[FWAAA]

except. FWAAA, you seem to keep wanting to forget that DL gave up billions in dollars to the PBGC and to the pilots group (far more than AA employees' 2003 concessions) directly in order to compensate them for the termination of the DL pilot pension plan.

I'm not wanting to forget anything, WT. My post had nothing to do with the DL pilot pension or the AA pilot pension. Absolutely nothing.

The sole reason the pilot pension plan was terminated and the others were not is because the pilot pension plan contained a lump sum payout feature than made it impossible for DL to continue to shovel in the cash necessary to fund the lump sum component of the pension plans. But DL paid plenty for terminating those pension plans which is why they didn't terminate any more plans than they had to.

None of the DL or NW pension plans have that feature, those plans were not terminated and those pension plans remain as DL liabilities with DL paying more each year to fund its FROZEN pension plans than AA does to fund its active plans - and DL still funds defined contribution retirement plans for its active employees.

WT: Springfield's answer to the question nobody asked. Once again, my post had nothing to do with pensions.

I'm not sure how you come up w/ your 2nd statement about AA pilot costs but there isn't a single category in which DL pilots make less than their AA counterparts - so I don't know how AA's pilots are the highest paid unless there is some inefficiencies in the AA pilot contract that puts them at some disadvantage to DL - who incidentally has more fleet types than AA and thus potentially more movement. And when you factor in the profit sharing that DL is paying, the actual rate that DL is paying for pilot labor is 10% or more higher than any AA category.

You appear to be temporarily confusing pilot costs with pilot pay rates (similar to Super FLUF). You make a quick recovery when you mentioned the productivity issues. Yes, DL's pilots negotiated modest pay rate increases after bankrupty. Nowhere near what they were getting before the 2004 concessions, but yes, they are getting slghtly higher hourly pay than AA. My post was all about pilot costs, not pilot pay rates.

No other formerly-bankrupt airline has higher pay rates than AA's current rates.

None of your dissertation on DL in this post refutes the fact that AA's pilot costs (not pay rates, but pilot costs) are the highest in the industry.

 

[WorldTraveler]

None of your dissertation on DL in this post refutes the fact that AA's pilot costs (not pay rates, but pilot costs) are the highest in the industry.

Then forgive me since I (and others) are having a hard time figuring how AA can have higher pilot costs when just about every component of DL pilot pay is more than what AA pilots get.
Perhaps you can explain that and then talking about the individual components that make up total pay will not be necessary.... unless of course the data is 2 years old and AA intentionally wants to keep parading it out since that data is what presents the message they need to make - even if it doesn't represent present reality.