American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[WeAAsles]

I made that one up but it got you.

Yes you did get me but you have to understand that I hear and read all sorts of the absurd all the time. Take this for example. You mentioned in your other post that UAL has unlimited Part Time for Fleet.

What you said was incorrect. Now they do have weak language compared to us here at AA but they do have language and here it is.

No back to back PT shifts and all FT were protected in their status as of DOS.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Yes you did get me but you have to understand that I hear and read all sorts of the absurd all the time. Take this for example. You mentioned in your other post that UAL has unlimited Part Time for Fleet.

What you said was incorrect. Now they do have weak language compared to us here at AA but they do have language and here it is.

No back to back PT shifts and all FT were protected in their status as of DOS.

View attachment 14052

View attachment 14053

Yea so you just confirmed unlimited part time positions. United could be 100% part time actually after each FT person leaves or gets downgraded.
Remember, their FT commitment to FTers as of 2013 also means that they lose their FT if they are forced to displace into another station, and choose not to.
In ORD, almost all backfilling has been thru pt hiring. And the only restrictions are in scheduling.
As Mr Baskett will tell you, 2 pters working 6 hour shift back to back wont be grieved. I disagree with mr baskett because i know the history of that language but the iam has polluted that language.

 

[Tim Nelson]

FT just isnt realistic at United unless you want SFO. Because of that, and Mr Basketts recommendations at united, we will have something similar at American, but with a PT cap.

 

[WeAAsles]

Yea so you just confirmed unlimited part time positions. United could be 100% part time actually after each FT person leaves or gets downgraded.
Remember, their FT commitment to FTers as of 2013 also means that they lose their FT if they are forced to displace into another station, and choose not to.
In ORD, almost all backfilling has been thru pt hiring. And the only restrictions are in scheduling.
As Mr Baskett will tell you, 2 pters working 6 hour shift back to back wont be grieved. I disagree with mr baskett because i know the history of that language but the iam has polluted that language.

Alright I’m not sure that this is a good idea but let’s give it a shot again anyway?

Yea so you just confirmed unlimited part time positions. United could be 100% part time actually after each FT person leaves or gets downgraded.

Remember, their FT commitment to FTers as of 2013 also means that they lose their FT if they are forced to displace into another station, and choose not to.

You’re technically correct. But now you have many many years before there would be a complete transitioning out of those FT Employees and by that time there will be new agreements reached in subsequent contracts.

Operationally it also doesn’t make sense to have an all PT Hub and carry so many extra employees to manage the operation so the entire premise is a straw man argument.

In ORD, almost all backfilling has been thru pt hiring. And the only restrictions are in scheduling.
As Mr Baskett will tell you, 2 pters working 6 hour shift back to back wont be grieved. I disagree with mr baskett because i know the history of that language but the iam has polluted that language.

I’m sure all backfilling has been through PT hiring. But I’m sure when the operation gets too difficult to handle they upgrade to FT as needed. As far as the 2 PT working back to back 6 hour shifts not being grieved I’d hope that’s doubtful if the language allows it to be a winnable grievance. In man hours though it just doesn’t make sense to hire 2 employees to work in certain locations where things can be don’t more efficiently with 1.

Don’t forget each employee carried has other expenses besides just wages.

Anyway I suspect at least for us here at AA we will at minimum keep the language we have at one or the other contract if not even strengthen from their with some form of “Status” protection which did exist in the TWU Contract prior to 2003.

(Whatever your Status was on DOS you were “System” protected in that Staus)

 

[WeAAsles]

FT just isnt realistic at United unless you want SFO. Because of that, and Mr Basketts recommendations at united, we will have something similar at American, but with a PT cap.

Tim because of the Seniority structure that exists at AA, UAL, SWA and is recognized at even most non Union carriers you will never find an employment opportunity in Fleet Service coming from the street that isn’t PT or Ready Reserve (Delta)

PT already in house always jump on those positions first.

Here in MIA the average length of time to gain a FT slot currently is around 2 to 3 years wait.

Even Walmart which anyone would assume would try to have a predominantly PT Workforce still has about half their staff working FT positions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1IQ295

 

[WeAAsles]

Does anyone who currently work or who has ever worked in say DFW or CLT think those locations could run efficiently on a predominantly PT Workforce?

When I was in DFW we were doing on average each gate about 5 1/2 turns per day for each shift morning and afternoon.

The main shifts I remember were 5:00 to 13:30 and 13:20 to 21:50. And then a few that did the same routine starting at 6:00 and 7:00.

Trying to staff that with 3 shifts of 5.5 hour crews against 2, 8.5 hour crews would make no sense even if we allowed back to back PT in our CBA’s.

Which we don’t and in TWU Stations that’s strictly enforced.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Does anyone who currently work or who has ever worked in say DFW or CLT think those locations could run efficiently on a predominantly PT Workforce?

When I was in DFW we were doing on average each gate about 5 1/2 turns per day for each shift morning and afternoon.

The main shifts I remember were 5:00 to 13:30 and 13:20 to 21:50. And then a few that did the same routine starting at 6:00 and 7:00.

Trying to staff that with 3 shifts of 5.5 hour crews against 2, 8.5 hour crews would make no sense even if we allowed back to back PT in our CBA’s.

Which we don’t and in TWU Stations that’s strictly enforced.

look, i cant argue against opinions about what may make sense or what may not make sense. But the language is similar to the UPS contract which took 10 years to decimate FT jobs. Now, UPS is 80% pt. They get all the same benefits but companies love pt due to less commitment and more flexibilities.
United pt is certainly on the rapid rise. Amazingly, that concession isnt on our table as Fly said the company already agreed with the association on part time usages.
That said, the unions double their dues with more part timers. Unions are against overtime as it limits dues.
As we both know, the contention in our talks is future headcount.
My biggest complaint is that the association shouldnt decide what is best without our consent.

 

[Kev3188]

Besides back-to-back language, it’s also important to guard against a scenario where it’s possible to put PT all on the early AM shifts (eg 0430-0900), and on the closing shift (eg 1830-2300). That means all FT stuck with something like bankers hours. Some may jump at that, but it’s still usually a pay cut, and definitely means less selection when it comes to picking shifts.

 

[WeAAsles]

look, i cant argue against opinions about what may make sense or what may not make sense. But the language is similar to the UPS contract which took 10 years to decimate FT jobs. Now, UPS is 80% pt. They get all the same benefits but companies love pt due to less commitment and more flexibilities.
United pt is certainly on the rapid rise. Amazingly, that concession isnt on our table as Fly said the company already agreed with the association on part time usages.
That said, the unions double their dues with more part timers. Unions are against overtime as it limits dues.
As we both know, the contention in our talks is future headcount.
My biggest complaint is that the association shouldnt decide what is best without our consent.

This year’s UPS 10k is not out yet so this is from last years 10k covering the year 2017. Their PT ratio is 49% not 80%. Actually most of their package deliver drivers covered under contract are full time. It’s their loaders, sorters and customer service staff who comprise the majority of their PT ranks.

 

[WeAAsles]

Besides back-to-back language, it’s also important to guard against a scenario where it’s possible to put PT all on the early AM shifts (eg 0430-0900), and on the closing shift (eg 1830-2300). That means all FT stuck with something like bankers hours. Some may jump at that, but it’s still usually a pay cut, and definitely means less selection when it comes to picking shifts.

Here in MIA much of that PT count is just where you said on those late night after 5PM shifts. Bagroom comprises the majority of much of those shifts and some support as well.

Early morning shifts in all areas are generally covered by FT.

And MIA also has historically tried to have as many Friday through Sunday off work as possible for FT, letting lower seniority and PT cover the gaps.

 

[Tim Nelson]

This year’s UPS 10k is not out yet so this is from last years 10k covering the year 2017. Their PT ratio is 49% not 80%. Actually most of their package deliver drivers covered under contract are full time. It’s their loaders, sorters and customer service staff who comprise the majority of their PT ranks.

View attachment 14059

true, their drivers are FT. The non cdl dudes are 80%.
Look, based on what Fly said, I dont think this will be the scerario at AA, although I do agree with Kev that its disappointing for you or any so called union guy, to support management and justify awful unlimited part time language at United.
As an aside, I dont think the majority believes in a blind stall. Its time to vote and give consent. But thats not going to happen because of a bus employee and a delta employee who claim crap contract offers.
If things pick up with the new union, im hopeful it raids the association in 2020. The objective will be to get member consent by bringing out the last best offer for a vote then to stand upon the voice of that vote. Thats polar opposite from the paternal situation now.

 

[WeAAsles]

true, their drivers are FT. The non cdl dudes are 80%.
Look, based on what Fly said, I dont think this will be the scerario at AA, although I do agree with Kev that its disappointing for you or any so called union guy, to support management and justify awful unlimited part time language at United.
As an aside, I dont think the majority believes in a blind stall. Its time to vote and give consent. But thats not going to happen because of a bus employee and a delta employee who claim crap contract offers.
If things pick up with the new union, im hopeful it raids the association in 2020. The objective will be to get member consent by bringing out the last best offer for a vote then to stand upon the voice of that vote. Thats polar opposite from the paternal situation now.

Goodbye.

 

[cltrat]

Goodbye.

Good call the odds of that happening are close to those of mankind landing on Mars next year

 

[Vortilon]

Are you the ambassador for 12,450 Mechanics? Why do many of you posters act like you are when you use the line “We are done”?

You mean “YOU” are done.

Can you show me ANY Union out there that does what you’re asking to the degree you want?

But I have said that I do agree that they can put out maybe a little bit more in depth on what comes out officially. But that’s just “MY” opinion. Me.

Of course I’m pretty much 100% positive you won’t believe it anyway. Am I wrong?

And again once more. You’re not a “We” you’re a “You” or when you type it out you’re an “I”. You only speak for a party of ONE. Even if you do “suppose” all others share your thoughts.

I’m absolutely 100% positive they don’t.

I may be a party of one; however, I do share the exact same sentiments of thousands on this topic. Most don't waste their time on these type of forums. I don't mind dropping by on occasion to set the record straight. So, your weak attempt of dismissing my comments isn't going to convince any other title 1 voter over what I expressed.
Ambassador for 12450 mechanics? How many mechanics do you think have similar expectations of these negotiations? I think you might be surprised.

 

[WeAAsles]

I may be a party of one; however, I do share the exact same sentiments of thousands on this topic. Most don't waste their time on these type of forums. I don't mind dropping by on occasion to set the record straight. So, your weak attempt of dismissing my comments isn't going to convince any other title 1 voter over what I expressed.
Ambassador for 12450 mechanics? How many mechanics do you think have similar expectations of these negotiations? I think you might be surprised.

I’m not dismissing your comments. If I was doing so I would have flat out said that you’re wrong which I didn’t do, did I.

And I’m never surprised how people think. I’m pretty in tune with how they think actually.