American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[JayDemyanAA2444]

I really hope you’re right, but recent history isn’t on your side.

How many times have we seen people skip straight to the pay scale (especially in the hubs), and skip the rest?

I really dont think that will be the case this time. The abysmal payscale that would be included in a proposal like this wouldnt garner nearly enough votes to pass it.

 

[737823]

Update

I will try this from another angle regarding the pension as it currently stands. If we got 5.5% top of scale towards the pension that would be a $74.10 multiplier for a FT. In 10 years that would be $741.00 per month added to my pension. In order to make up for that, I would have to put $4.80 per hour into my 401k to get the same $741.00 per month. How's that for a punch in the gut?

P. Rez

That fake pension is dead on arrival and the company wants out of it. I know the IAM will fight harder for the pension than just about anything (other than the union security clause):

This is a direct quote from Kev

UT--

Of all the items the company was asking for in each of the proposed concessionary agreements, the *one* thing everyone-junior, senior, 'tween- I spoke with were amenable to was the 401k match. NW would have frozen the pension anyway, so the choice was either the match, or the IAMNP plan. NO ONE wanted the IAM plan, yet it was the one thing the IAM fought hardest for. Not scope, not wages, their plan...

And just how much will retiring folks get from the IAM plan? No one can tell you! The officers in DL143 have no idea how much the multiplier will be..... :angry:

Josh

 

[NYer]

NYer,

Are you on the NC? What about the negatives for the LUS members? Did you forget about us, your new brothers and sisters? You see, it's not all about what the LAA guys are going to get, it is about what we ALL are going to get. You do understand this right? Why are you so willing to throw me and my fellow LUS folks under the bus for a few pieces of silver? Have you been so beat down that you ultimately will take virtually ANY offer from the company just to gain a few extra holidays, a few cents more an hour, and maybe an extra week of vacation? Why should we BUY any improvements to the JCBA? Every improvement the company proposed came with a price tag for fleet attached to it. The company's proposal is concessionary in nature, FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!, why can't you see that? Stockholm syndrome rears its ugly head again. You really need to seek help for it.

All those points are well understood and I've always maintained and shared that if the roles were reversed we'd be doing the same things. I tried to explain to our TWU Brothers on this page how it was counterproductive to insult the IAM fire but participating in the TWU protests last year

In these negotiations, for Fleet, the TWU stands to make gains while the IAM faces more takeaways That dynamic should have been explained better throughout the last two years.

Few on these pages even wanted to acknowledge the biggest item in these negotiations, again for Fleet, was going to be the IAM Medical and we needed to better prepared for that fight.

What the leaderships ended up doing was predicting the end of this process prematurely on several occasions. That back and forth on whether we're finished or not and the lack of substantive updates has fatigued and frustrated a large portion of the Members.

Late last year I shared that I believe we would face a comprehensive proposal that would put the IAM at a disadvantage because of our larger numbers, especially the IAM medical. The retort was it wasn't going to be an issue because it's survived 2 bankruptcies. Yet, here we are.

If forced to vote, it will pass with the loss of the IAM medical. Nobody wanted to believe that was possible. We'll see.

If we go into Section 6, the likelihood of the IAM medical loss is heightened, especially if the APA and APFA reach another agreement which includes the current LAA medical and they can start negotiation as early as next January.

In a situation where one group stood to gain more and another group stood to lose more, there should have been much better communications throughout the process.

I've understood and shared the perspective of the IAM from the very beginning, few cared and some even criticized me on these same pages.

 

[Kev3188]

I really dont think that will be the case this time. The abysmal payscale that would be included in a proposal like this wouldnt garner nearly enough votes to pass it.

I believe it. I just hope people don’t start getting impatient and push to vote on “anything.”

My guess is that the company will also punch up the pay scale and make a big deal out of it, while taking more away elsewhere and not.

 

[WeAAsles]

NYer,

Are you on the NC? What about the negatives for the LUS members? Did you forget about us, your new brothers and sisters? You see, it's not all about what the LAA guys are going to get, it is about what we ALL are going to get. You do understand this right? Why are you so willing to throw me and my fellow LUS folks under the bus for a few pieces of silver? Have you been so beat down that you ultimately will take virtually ANY offer from the company just to gain a few extra holidays, a few cents more an hour, and maybe an extra week of vacation? Why should we BUY any improvements to the JCBA? Every improvement the company proposed came with a price tag for fleet attached to it. The company's proposal is concessionary in nature, FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!, why can't you see that? Stockholm syndrome rears its ugly head again. You really need to seek help for it.

The reality is Irish that there is no group or agency that can “force” or even ultimately pressure a vote on any proposal that doesn’t include some relief in the areas of Medical costs that TWU Members were “forced” to absorb in our AA Bankruptcy.

That’s where I’m trying to change the narrative. That it not you losing your Medical savings but us desperately needing relief in that area as our Family Plan costs are sickening.

Another thing “some” TWU Members at least in Fleet seem to not be cognizant of is that the numbers between the two groups are not overwhelming even if the Association thankfully was not setup to allow any bullying of one group over another.

There are roughly 18,000 FSC currently and around 8,000 of them are IAM. Again that’s not exactly a landslide.

Anyway I don’t need to reiterate my feelings on the Medical costs ad nuseum.

The idea of losing your Catering work which is a year round job function accounting for many heads is ridiculous to even think about entertaining. This TWU guy will vote NO if that job loss came to my desk.

The Company is not offering enough to even consider no longer contributing to your IAMPF. They can and need to do better if they really want that to be considered IMO.

 

[737823]

NYer:
You expect the company to pay you market rate pay and would cite that the industry is a period of both structural and cyclical stability at the moment.

Why does the tune change for health care? Health care costs are rising for everyone across the United States. Why does everyone selfishly insist their pay should reflect market conditions but want to keep their head buried in the sand with the LUS IAM healthcare from 2005?

Some people here are in serious denial.

Josh

 

[NYer]

NYer,

You see, it's not all about what the LAA guys are going to get, it is about what we ALL are going to get. You do understand this right? Why are you so willing to throw me and my fellow LUS folks under the bus for a few pieces of silver? Have you been so beat down that you ultimately will take virtually ANY offer from the company just to gain a few extra holidays, a few cents more an hour, and maybe an extra week of vacation?

Because there was little work done to prepare everyone for being in this position, we don't we understand the perspective of the other side.

I understand the IAM perspective completely and have shared it. The TWU perspective may not have been shared but it is legitimate as well and unfortunately the arguments you bring should have shared before this point.

The TWU Fleet have been working with lower vacations, holidays, sick days, ID days, no double time,, no double time and a half since 2003. 15 years. The IAM has many of those things in better numbers than the TWU. We're already in the LAA medical and we're already in the 401K.

What does leadership scream every time there is a holiday? The IAM are getting double time on this holiday and for the TWU it's nothing, a regular day, the Company should bring us to par. You think that's productive in any way? To me, it just angers people more. An anger they've been feeling for 15 years.

During the protests there was criticism because the IAM didn't participate in the protests. Why didn't they run towards a protest, probably because a quicker resolution would mean a tougher fight and why rush towards that. We wouldn't.

So, instead of bringing everyone together we seem to have inadvertently drawn them further apart by emphasizing the differences.

If we come on these pages and not listen to different perspectives but just dictate them we won't be prepared for what comes next And here we are.

 

[swamt]

All those points are well understood and I've always maintained and shared that if the roles were reversed we'd be doing the same things. I tried to explain to our TWU Brothers on this page how it was counterproductive to insult the IAM fire but participating in the TWU protests last year

In these negotiations, for Fleet, the TWU stands to make gains while the IAM faces more takeaways That dynamic should have been explained better throughout the last two years.

Few on these pages even wanted to acknowledge the biggest item in these negotiations, again for Fleet, was going to be the IAM Medical and we needed to better prepared for that fight.

What the leaderships ended up doing was predicting the end of this process prematurely on several occasions. That back and forth on whether we're finished or not and the lack of substantive updates has fatigued and frustrated a large portion of the Members.

Late last year I shared that I believe we would face a comprehensive proposal that would put the IAM at a disadvantage because of our larger numbers, especially the IAM medical. The retort was it wasn't going to be an issue because it's survived 2 bankruptcies. Yet, here we are.

If forced to vote, it will pass with the loss of the IAM medical. Nobody wanted to believe that was possible. We'll see.

If we go into Section 6, the likelihood of the IAM medical loss is heightened, especially if the APA and APFA reach another agreement which includes the current LAA medical and they can start negotiation as early as next January.

In a situation where one group stood to gain more and another group stood to lose more, there should have been much better communications throughout the process.

I've understood and shared the perspective of the IAM from the very beginning, few cared and some even criticized me on these same pages.

I remember those days way back when when you were trying like heck to tell the guys what to expect. Of course they kept the original LUS medical thru 2 BK's because it was all LUS employees voting for it, where now, you have a majority LAA employees that could very easily vote to get rid of it so, with that said, it would not be the same now to think that the medical is still safe just because LUS employees were able to keep it thru 2 BK's. Times are different now. I too predicted that the LUS guys will lose their medical and end up with the LAA medical with slight improvements to encourage the LAA employees to jump on it and therefore canceling out the LUS votes against it. I also said something will happen with the pension as well but just too hard to make that call as of yet. I do know NONE of the LAA'ers want the pension as it would not do most of them any good (most are too old to get any big benefits out of it).
It will get interesting when all the details are released, and yes, you guys should have been better communicated with by the asso. about what is really going on behind closed doors. Most will be pissed once the T/A day is here...

 

[WeAAsles]

I believe it. I just hope people don’t start getting impatient and push to vote on “anything.”

My guess is that the company will also punch up the pay scale and make a big deal out of it, while taking more away elsewhere and not.

The only people who are frustrated are those who no matter how much they are compensated are always going to have financial difficulties anyway. Yes I have ran into a few of them but not as many as some want to project exist. And they also know full well who is keeping them from reaching a deal now (The Company)

And the largest group of frustrated individuals are the Commuters. They’re to me basically the only ones who’s voices are not being heard and have every right to share not only their frustration but their anger as well.

 

[NYer]

NYer:
You expect the company to pay you market rate pay and would cite that the industry is a period of both structural and cyclical stability at the moment.

Why does the tune change for health care? Health care costs are rising for everyone across the United States. Why does everyone selfishly insist their pay should reflect market conditions but want to keep their head buried in the sand with the LUS IAM healthcare from 2005?

Some people here are in serious denial.

Josh

If I were in the IAM and had that medical I would fight for it tooth and nail. From their perspective there is nothing to lose.

Unfortunately, they are the last group in LAA to have a different plan which makes their fight to keep much harder.

On the Maintenance side, they have many, many more issues to contend with so they can put in a longer fight since the TWU looks to be damaged by the outsourcing plans.

In Fleet, there are less issues and some of them can be addressed in the official comprehensive counter-proposal once they're done with their current intel.

 

[Kev3188]

The only people who are frustrated are those who no matter how much they are compensated are always going to have financial difficulties anyway. Yes I have ran into a few of them but not as many as some want to project exist. And they also know full well who is keeping them from reaching a deal now (The Company)

I'm familiar with that crowd. They're usually the ones that have already bought a new truck before a T/A is even ratified.

 

[NYer]

I remember those days way back when when you were trying like heck to tell the guys what to expect. Of course they kept the original LUS medical thru 2 BK's because it was all LUS employees voting for it, where now, you have a majority LAA employees that could very easily vote to get rid of it so, with that said, it would not be the same now to think that the medical is still safe just because LUS employees were able to keep it thru 2 BK's. Times are different now. I too predicted that the LUS guys will lose their medical and end up with the LAA medical with slight improvements to encourage the LAA employees to jump on it and therefore canceling out the LUS votes against it. I also said something will happen with the pension as well but just too hard to make that call as of yet. I do know NONE of the LAA'ers want the pension as it would not do most of them any good (most are too old to get any big benefits out of it).
It will get interesting when all the details are released, and yes, you guys should have been better communicated with by the asso. about what is really going on behind closed doors. Most will be pissed once the T/A day is here...

If it became a choice, I believe many would take it and if you're young it may be a good choice if you supplement with a 401K. Diversity is a friend to building wealth.

Ultimately, I don't believe the Pension piece will be an issue other than being a negotiations piece.

We tried to share we'd this point and now we're trying to share where we may go. For TWU Fleet, that may mean an adjustment to the deicing language protecting it in the places where it would survive regardless of their proposed language.

TWU posters on these pages keep using the currently proposed wages and outsourcing as the basis or a no vote. Many more around the system are saying and sharing the same thing OK. What happens if they take away those negatives? A lot of those "no" may turn to yes.

If we get a last offer, the pressure to vote for it to come back (even with a vote no recommend) would be huge as well as include legal representation issues if not shared. As well as NMB pressure for the Association to move more towards the Company than the Company moving towards the Association, if this goes to Section 6 without a vote.

 

[Kev3188]

If we get a last offer, the pressure to vote for it to come back (even with a vote no recommend) would be huge...

I'm not sure everyone here realizes this?

*Some will want to vote because they like the offer.
*Some will want to vote so they can "officially" express their frustration via a NO vote- If past is precedent, we will see pics of people's ballots that may or may not have a middle finger in them.
*Some will want to vote because they just want to get it over with, one way or the other.

 

[WeAAsles]

If I were in the IAM and had that medical I would fight for it tooth and nail. From their perspective there is nothing to lose.

Unfortunately, they are the last group in LAA to have a different plan which makes their fight to keep much harder.

On the Maintenance side, they have many, many more issues to contend with so they can put in a longer fight since the TWU looks to be damaged by the outsourcing plans.

In Fleet, there are less issues and some of them can be addressed in the official comprehensive counter-proposal once they're done with their current intel.

Well I do believe that there will be growing frustration if the Company does come back and can address most of the concerns on the Fleet side but don’t adequately come to terms with Maintenance at the same time?

We will wait till Maintenance is resolved IMO. This is how Unity works and it’s something we seem to have lost on the TWU side that needs to be regained.

And if you watched the recent Peterson video you would see that the TWU is also in the fight for cheaper Medical as well. It’s no longer an issue the IAM needs to feel alone on because they’re not.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm familiar with that crowd. They're usually the ones that have already bought a new truck before a T/A is even ratified.

In 2001 after the Towers went down they were buying Boats.

I kid you not.