American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[B737 driver]

Don’t sell yourself short!

Well maintained fleet—> Increased reliability—>Increased load factor (and/or ability to capture revenue premium)—> more $$$

Not trying too, but would be nice if we did maintenance for other airlines.

 

[WeAAsles]

On one hand you say "you're in no mood to lose more core work," and on the other say you support the collective will of the people. You then get mad when I point out language in many CBA's has allowed that "core work" to disappear.

What do you think everyone is voting on?

You may be right about us differing on what being in a union shop means. From your posts, I see an endorsement of Business (or Service) model of unionism, while I prefer the Organizing model.

Maybe someday we'll find some common ground.

Kev particularly in regards to say concessionary Negotiations which I think you feel should never happen despite where the Company you work for sits in Economic health. There are many who only accept that as piss poor excuses.

I don’t personally agree with how those Contracts were structured but again I accept the will of the Membership through the Leaders and hopefully polling of their Members what would or wouldn’t be accepted.

If NYer could ever be fair to me anymore he’ll tell you that in the BK I said I would be willing to take a $2.00 per hour hit if it saved Cabin Service and Small Cities. He and another told me I was crazy and it wouldn’t pass. I said how about a freakin Dollar then? They still said I was crazy. THEY WERE RIGHT!!! When our BK agreement came out it had a .42 Cent per hour give back and people went Ape Chit crazy. I was surprised that it even passed.

And in 2010 I was going to vote no for the deal that gave away Cabin Service for money mainly cause 80 Medically restricted people would be thrown out in to the cold.

Kev I totally understand where you come from but you don’t understand the pulse of the majority IMO. You and I both again don’t like their choices but you need to respect the choice they make when it’s made.

 

[WeAAsles]

On one hand you say "you're in no mood to lose more core work," and on the other say you support the collective will of the people. You then get mad when I point out language in many CBA's has allowed that "core work" to disappear.

What do you think everyone is voting on?

You may be right about us differing on what being in a union shop means. From your posts, I see an endorsement of Business (or Service) model of unionism, while I prefer the Organizing model.

Maybe someday we'll find some common ground.

BTW I think I’m already closer to where most people sit on things which is not one side or the other but somewhere comfortably in the middle.

No I’m not exactly interested in marching with the Anarchists when I do feel like I’m pretty comfortable and don’t need to. But I do understand the need for the Anarchists to exist.

BTW also you do work in the Service Industry I hope you realize? Lol.

 

[WeAAsles]

Exactly NYer. It’s called “Balancing”

We ALL vote for ourselves and our needs first. Behind that is where we look to see where our personal integrity and concern for others falls.

You know back in 2010 I probably wouldn’t have cared about those 80 Medically restricted people if Tom DelValle hadn’t said “We’re not running a hospital” in response to the question asked what could be done for them.

YOU were the one who told me he said that. The fact you even told me said that it did bother you too. But for some reason you “chose” to let that pass. I “chose” not to.

Morally I just couldn’t pull that trigger. (The 100,000 Candy bar also told me what those creeps were all about)

 

[WeAAsles]

Exactly NYer. It’s called “Balancing”

We ALL vote for ourselves and our needs first. Behind that is where we look to see where our personal integrity and concern for others falls.

You know back in 2010 I probably wouldn’t have cared about those 80 Medically restricted people if Tom DelValle hadn’t said “We’re not running a hospital” in response to the question asked what could be done for them.

YOU were the one who told me he said that. The fact you even told me said that it did bother you too. But for some reason you “chose” to let that pass. I “chose” not to.

Morally I just couldn’t pull that trigger. (The 100,000 Candy bar also told me what those creeps were all about)

NYer deleted his posting that I wrote this response to.

Perhaps he remembered his own old moral compass for just one moment?

 

[Jester]

What the hell is my “core” work and who the hell decided that?

Like about everything else... when it suits the Company, then it is "core" work, and of course, when it does not, then it isn't "core" work. If the Company decides "core" work to be loading planes, running connects, delivering locals, etc. then it does so provided the "core" work does not fall below an average number of daily mainline flights-- that "core" work belongs to a contractor. So much for "core" work.

On a side note, I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around these claims of an estimated $6,500 annual insurance increase by the LUS should JCBA adopt the LAA plan. Unless there are some plans which the LUS employee pays $0 presently (for which I do not know of any), I do not think it is possible to get to the $6,500 difference. As my family status changed a few years ago, I am not directly dealing with the expenses anymore, so I am not sure.

Also as I have some communications with a few preferential LUS hires, my understanding is the PTers on AA side pay the same as the AA FTers, which is less than the PTers on the US side who pay twice as much LUS FTers. (That statement reads like a college entrance exam question.) In essence, if my understanding to be correct, PTers on AA presently pay less than PTers on US, so they only group who will pay more would be LUS FTers with the company proposed JCBA?

 

[WeAAsles]

Like about everything else... when it suits the Company, then it is "core" work, and of course, when it does not, then it isn't "core" work. If the Company decides "core" work to be loading planes, running connects, delivering locals, etc. then it does so provided the "core" work does not fall below an average number of daily mainline flights-- that "core" work belongs to a contractor. So much for "core" work.

On a side note, I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around these claims of an estimated $6,500 annual insurance increase by the LUS should JCBA adopt the LAA plan. Unless there are some plans which the LUS employee pays $0 presently (for which I do not know of any), I do not think it is possible to get to the $6,500 difference. As my family status changed a few years ago, I am not directly dealing with the expenses anymore, so I am not sure.

Also as I have some communications with a few preferential LUS hires, my understanding is the PTers on AA side pay the same as the AA FTers, which is less than the PTers on the US side who pay twice as much LUS FTers. (That statement reads like a college entrance exam question.) In essence, if my understanding to be correct, PTers on AA presently pay less than PTers on US, so they only group who will pay more would be LUS FTers with the company proposed JCBA?

Here’s a thought on “core” work. Presently on the LAA side a flight comes in and we Water the Plane and Dump the Lavs. We do a partiality of the work of Liquids in and out of the Plane. BUT we don’t do the Fueling? Fuel is a Liquid. And Fuel obviously has a base in Water.

So how/why is 2/3 of the Liquid function considered I guess a part of my “Core” work but one particular aspect is not and is contracted out?

I wish someone at one of these Roadblocks/shows would maybe focus some on this “Core” idea just a little.

The Medical.

From what I understand the Union compared what would be considered the 80/20 plans/costs between the IAM and TWU Family plans utilizing the full benefits maxing out and the extra added cost would come out to $6,500 for the year.

Isom in the last Townhall stated he also pays the LAA Medical costs as well. I guess not too difficult for a man who essentially earns Millions yearly though.

Getting down to brass tacks there’s a completely different associated cost percentage of a Baggage Handlers compensation that goes towards Medical than there is Executives, Pilots and even Mechanics compared to those approaching lower and lower ranks.

The Medical cost is not exactly a one size fits all.

Jester if you want to not view the entirety just skip ahead to around the 4 minute mark forward and you can understand the TWU side take on the Medical.

 

[AANOTOK]

That’s a great point, one I never really thought of. When Isom stated he used the 80/20 plan, he did so proudly. Let’s see what percentage of his pay goes toward his medical premiums. Likewise with all workgroups. I remember when we had profit sharing the Crandall way, Pilots would get about $100,000 while I received about $2,000. I’m getting screwed on both ends. I pay more medical percentage wise (income not a deciding factor), but receive less in profit sharing because it is income sensitive. F that...give me LUS’s plan.

 

[WeAAsles]

That’s a great point, one I never really thought of. When Isom stated he used the 80/20 plan, he did so proudly. Let’s see what percentage of his pay goes toward his medical premiums. Likewise with all workgroups. I remember when we had profit sharing the Crandall way, Pilots would get about $100,000 while I received about $2,000. I’m getting screwed on both ends. I pay more medical percentage wise (income not a deciding factor), but receive less in profit sharing because it is income sensitive. F that...give me LUS’s plan.

You see even despite yes his arrogance this is where “Watcher” came in handy. If people could put the emotions aside the guy does have a photographic memory for information and I can pick from his head without having to try to find a lot of information the hard way.

The survivability of the LUS Medical has continued to be an ongoing fact. I don’t need to continue to harp on that subject just to have an old friend come on and argue with me.

AANOTOK I’m looking at the pamphlet I saved right here in front of me. For the best that AA “claims” it can offer a Family Value Plan is $653.00 per month or $7840.00 per year not including a $1200.00 Deductible and $6,200 out of pocket maximum that includes the Deductible. That’s a maximum of $12,840 for the year on the Value Plan. That’s a massive chunk of ones compensation.

I’d really like to know when any of us at LAA began to think paying those kinds of expenses became reasonable or ok?

 

[P. REZ]

Update

I will try this from another angle regarding the pension as it currently stands. If we got 5.5% top of scale towards the pension that would be a $74.10 multiplier for a FT. In 10 years that would be $741.00 per month added to my pension. In order to make up for that, I would have to put $4.80 per hour into my 401k to get the same $741.00 per month. How's that for a punch in the gut?

P. Rez

 

[P. REZ]

Like about everything else... when it suits the Company, then it is "core" work, and of course, when it does not, then it isn't "core" work. If the Company decides "core" work to be loading planes, running connects, delivering locals, etc. then it does so provided the "core" work does not fall below an average number of daily mainline flights-- that "core" work belongs to a contractor. So much for "core" work.

On a side note, I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around these claims of an estimated $6,500 annual insurance increase by the LUS should JCBA adopt the LAA plan. Unless there are some plans which the LUS employee pays $0 presently (for which I do not know of any), I do not think it is possible to get to the $6,500 difference. As my family status changed a few years ago, I am not directly dealing with the expenses anymore, so I am not sure.

Also as I have some communications with a few preferential LUS hires, my understanding is the PTers on AA side pay the same as the AA FTers, which is less than the PTers on the US side who pay twice as much LUS FTers. (That statement reads like a college entrance exam question.) In essence, if my understanding to be correct, PTers on AA presently pay less than PTers on US, so they only group who will pay more would be LUS FTers with the company proposed JCBA?

Jester,

The top plan under LAA is the value plan. That costs a family, whether PT or FT, $653.38 per month. Our 80 plan under LUS, FT pays $106.49 per month and PT pays $212.98 per month. Just to have the LAA value plan and not use it would cost a FT employee $6562.68 more per year and a PT employee $5284.80 more per year.

P. Rez

 

[WeAAsles]

Update

I will try this from another angle regarding the pension as it currently stands. If we got 5.5% top of scale towards the pension that would be a $74.10 multiplier for a FT. In 10 years that would be $741.00 per month added to my pension. In order to make up for that, I would have to put $4.80 per hour into my 401k to get the same $741.00 per month. How's that for a punch in the gut?

P. Rez

P. Rez have you guys done a true cost analysis on what could be the actual average cost the Company would contribute if we were to accept all being transferred over to the 401k Match that AA has proposed?

Again according to Forbes the average Company Match is now up to 4.5% and even with that amount there are 23% of Employees who don’t take full advantage of that amount.

I’m sure we will be at an even much higher rate than that since many youth will already think the Company contributing 5% is good enough and they won’t capitalize on capturing that lost 4%.

The Company wanting FULL credit is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous.

Not to also mention that once the Buyouts have been completed those expenses will drop even more dramatically.

 

[WeAAsles]

Here’s another question I’d like to float out there. Both Parker and Isom have been going around the Country and claiming that the costs associated with their offer is many hundreds of Millions?

First I wonder if they are including the Buyout offer to their figures which is only a one time cost item? Written off on the expense reports too I might add.

Second and again have they anticipated the savings they will gain once all of those TOS Employees transition out of the Company?

Have any of those savings been baked into the proposal? (I highly doubt it)

 

[B737 driver]

Yea I have to agree with Kev. After seeing one of your engines blow up and suck a lady out to kingdom come I don’t think you should underestimate your value.

This could wind up becoming a tsunami of future Aircraft issues.

Thanks we are busy, getting it done ,everyone is working hard, proud to be at SWA for 24 years.

 

[pjirish317]

There will be a sweetening of the Comprehensive Proposal and wages will probably mirror the UA wages, plus 3% and raise go from 2% to 2.5%, as an example.

It is unfortunate most don't want to realize what the Company is doing and how they will make adjustments to what they've put out publicly so when it becomes an official counter-proposal it will silence some of the points being brought up by Members because they'll address some of it.

On the Fleet side, for the TWU members, the number of negatives is quickly diminishing. Once the wages are adjusted most everything else is a positive.

We can talk about the deicing piece which is important to many. However, even in the stations that have it, most FSC in those stations don't work it. Seems like wishful thinking for the majority in each of these stations would be willing to forgo the extra holidays, SK days, etc. so that a few can get more OT.

It would pass.

NYer,

Are you on the NC? What about the negatives for the LUS members? Did you forget about us, your new brothers and sisters? You see, it's not all about what the LAA guys are going to get, it is about what we ALL are going to get. You do understand this right? Why are you so willing to throw me and my fellow LUS folks under the bus for a few pieces of silver? Have you been so beat down that you ultimately will take virtually ANY offer from the company just to gain a few extra holidays, a few cents more an hour, and maybe an extra week of vacation? Why should we BUY any improvements to the JCBA? Every improvement the company proposed came with a price tag for fleet attached to it. The company's proposal is concessionary in nature, FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!, why can't you see that? Stockholm syndrome rears its ugly head again. You really need to seek help for it.