American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[CremaDiLimone]

Why do you have to point out Hub people as if they’re your enemy? You seem to hold real anger towards people who work in Hubs.

The wages as conveyed only amount to .22 cents DOS. And the Company proposes only 2% per year times 5 years.

That’s not a scale that’s going to get people to break out the Pom Poms.

it's a no from me, but i've been surprised at the number of fscs who must be secret millionaires. if i lived in hayseed, tx. and commuted 80 miles a day to pay a $1.5k yearly property tax bill...bring a vote on. it's not like that in some hubs.

 

[WeAAsles]

Fleet MATH as to why it will not pass IMO.

But first I want to hit this “frustration” line being floated. I’m on multiple Social Media pages and it just doesn’t exist. For those who are currently at $65,000 there isn’t exactly a fantastical reason to have frustrations. (Maybe slight aggravation’s yes) So no I don’t see this overwhelming emotion that’s being sold here.

Now MATH for this sub par offer.

27% IAM side is being offered essentially nothing but takeaways. So I see that as an overwhelming no vote there.

TWU All East Coast, Central and Mid West cities love the OT that the Winter Season And Deicing brings. So that and the changes to the OT language will bring an overwhelming no. NYC, BOS and ORD are all strong Union towns that WON’T accept job loss.

TWU MIA could be shaky on both the CS and OT change. So with no real wage increases and that piece could cause problems here. We do have a lot of New Hires who WILL jump on the $3000 though.

The wages myself and others have pointed out are terrible. .22 cents and 2% per year will easily put us in last place against our peers for the entirety of the agreement from next year on. Yes let’s not pretend here, people do focus on wages.

The good is not enough to outweigh all the bad. And that’s not to say some of it isn’t “good” Great NO, Good yes.

Holidays, Good
Extra Vacation only over 30 years, stinks
Sick time, Meh
IOD time, Yuck (We used to have 80 days)
401k Match, Good but could be better.

The Buyout offer should be outside any agreement.

From there I’d be very interested in the fine print regarding work rules?

So now since people here on this site insist on doing this I want to see a detailed broken down analysis on why they see it passing. Keep your emotions and fluff in check and give me your own Mathematical breakdown on how you would get to your pass vote?

 

[sendmeupacrowsfoot]

Fleet MATH as to why it will not pass IMO.

But first I want to hit this “frustration” line being floated. I’m on multiple Social Media pages and it just doesn’t exist. For those who are currently at $65,000 there isn’t exactly a fantastical reason to have frustrations. (Maybe slight aggravation’s yes) So no I don’t see this overwhelming emotion that’s being sold here.

Now MATH for this sub par offer.

27% IAM side is being offered essentially nothing but takeaways. So I see that as an overwhelming no vote there.

TWU All East Coast, Central and Mid West cities love the OT that the Winter Season And Deicing brings. So that and the changes to the OT language will bring an overwhelming no. NYC, BOS and ORD are all strong Union towns that WON’T accept job loss.

TWU MIA could be shaky on both the CS and OT change. So with no real wage increases and that piece could cause problems here. We do have a lot of New Hires who WILL jump on the $3000 though.

The wages myself and others have pointed out are terrible. .22 cents and 2% per year will easily put us in last place against our peers for the entirety of the agreement from next year on. Yes let’s not pretend here, people do focus on wages.

The good is not enough to outweigh all the bad. And that’s not to say some of it isn’t “good” Great NO, Good yes.

Holidays, Good
Extra Vacation only over 30 years, stinks
Sick time, Meh
IOD time, Yuck (We used to have 80 days)
401k Match, Good but could be better.

The Buyout offer should be outside any agreement.

From there I’d be very interested in the fine print regarding work rules?

So now since people here on this site insist on doing this I want to see a detailed broken down analysis on why they see it passing. Keep your emotions and fluff in check and give me your own Mathematical breakdown on how you would get to your pass vote?

72% YES vote.....................crowstradamus

 

[WeAAsles]

it's a no from me, but i've been surprised at the number of fscs who must be secret millionaires. if i lived in hayseed, tx. and commuted 80 miles a day to pay a $1.5k yearly property tax bill...bring a vote on. it's not like that in some hubs.

Right. NYC, ORD, PHL, and LAX would look at those proposed wage increases and chit out a cow IMO. The pulse I feel in MIA on this has been mostly muted although I do feel someone has been trying to stir people up. For the purpose I don’t really understand?

I do think if the Company put out a wage chart detailing the DOS and next 5 years increases the Membership would show their real emotions and that’s why so far the Company has refused to do so.

I also feel they’ve held back as a psychological maneuver. I think they will sweeten that area and then release to try and garner excitement. And depending how much yes people will fall for it. We’re essentially a very greedy little species.

 

[WeAAsles]

72% YES vote.....................crowstradamus

Foot is AMFA SWA and he’s returning a rib shot at me.

Actually yours I really meant it because you do have dramatic wage increases and near full retro attached with no Scope loss. I think the wage offer also places you well ahead of AA, DL and UAL right? Despite the fact you did want 1 or 2% more economically. Taking out any emotions when your members sit down and do the Math they’re going to see it’s a very good deal financially.

Our current online offer from the Company is quite different.

 

[WeAAsles]

I don’t, but one doesn’t have to look to far to see people in hubs (at multiple carriers) choosing $$$ over almost all else. Add to that some apathy/people sick of waiting/the IGM crowd etc., and you have a recipe for a sh*tty outcome.

You guys are up to bat, and whether you like it or not, how you all ultimately vote will have a massive effect on every other carrier going forward.




That certainly works in labor’s favor.

Stop hating your fellow Hub Brothers and Sisters and whatever choices they chose to make in the Airlines that are allowed choices. If they vote on Dollar signs alone that’s their right.

I may not vote the same as the Majority one day but I will live with and respect their decision. Or maybe I shouldn’t be in a Union job (Honestly)

 

[Kev3188]

I also feel they’ve held back as a psychological maneuver. I think they will sweeten that area and then release to try and garner excitement.

No doubt.

And depending how much yes people will fall for it. We’re essentially a very greedy little species.

I think this answers your earlier question of why people vote the way they do.

I watched the PHL town hall video yesterday. The officer that spoke was great. Speaking that sort of truth to power has long been lacking for labor. That said, one guy at one meeting isn't enough. With the push of a button, companies can reach every employee. That means the Association has to spend a lot of time either countering the message, or furthering their own. My hope is the opt for the latter. Let management chase the message for once, ya know?

I personally hope that $6500 medical cost difference is a talking point everybody hammers constantly. That dollar amount, and how it relates to pay (he cited it as a 10-20% paycut) can't be overstated. I say that as someone that went from having pretty good insurance costs to outlandish ones.

 

[AANOTOK]

Fleet MATH as to why it will not pass IMO.

But first I want to hit this “frustration” line being floated. I’m on multiple Social Media pages and it just doesn’t exist. For those who are currently at $65,000 there isn’t exactly a fantastical reason to have frustrations. (Maybe slight aggravation’s yes) So no I don’t see this overwhelming emotion that’s being sold here.

Now MATH for this sub par offer.

27% IAM side is being offered essentially nothing but takeaways. So I see that as an overwhelming no vote there.

TWU All East Coast, Central and Mid West cities love the OT that the Winter Season And Deicing brings. So that and the changes to the OT language will bring an overwhelming no. NYC, BOS and ORD are all strong Union towns that WON’T accept job loss.

TWU MIA could be shaky on both the CS and OT change. So with no real wage increases and that piece could cause problems here. We do have a lot of New Hires who WILL jump on the $3000 though.

The wages myself and others have pointed out are terrible. .22 cents and 2% per year will easily put us in last place against our peers for the entirety of the agreement from next year on. Yes let’s not pretend here, people do focus on wages.

The good is not enough to outweigh all the bad. And that’s not to say some of it isn’t “good” Great NO, Good yes.

Holidays, Good
Extra Vacation only over 30 years, stinks
Sick time, Meh
IOD time, Yuck (We used to have 80 days)
401k Match, Good but could be better.

The Buyout offer should be outside any agreement.

From there I’d be very interested in the fine print regarding work rules?

So now since people here on this site insist on doing this I want to see a detailed broken down analysis on why they see it passing. Keep your emotions and fluff in check and give me your own Mathematical breakdown on how you would get to your pass vote?

What you did W was a lot of work and it does tell the true story. The problem is many people do not put that kind of effort into it.

I agree, you have commented in the past that you think/thought I was always a YES vote. I will never be a yes vote when a CEO says we will never lose money again. When a CEO says we will never say we can't afford it again. When a CEO can buy back stock and then turn around and sell shares to the tune of $19 million in one day and then with that ridiculous smirk on his face claim the contract being offered is industry leading. I will never be a yes vote when the CFO claims AA has more money than they know what to do with and then be part of the $10 Billion share buyback to enhance his portfolio.

I don't need to put numbers together W to say why I would vote no. But none of the numbers that you or I threw out there mean jack if the folks are not educated. I personally don't think the Association is anywhere close to educating anyone...as again in my opinion AA is being more proactive in their selling.

As has been for my 35 years, my vote is only one vote. You have 29,999 others who vote as well.

 

[Kev3188]

Stop hating your fellow Hub Brothers and Sisters and whatever choices they chose to make in the Airlines that are allowed choices. If they vote on Dollar signs alone that’s their right.

I don't "hate" anyone.

People are certainly free to vote as they wish. I'm certainly free to point out that it often winds up going against their best interests long term.

Less stations= less power collectively.
Give away language= Good luck ever regaining it.

 

[robbedagain]

Back in 05 BDL and PVD were added to the US contract to get it to pass n it worked

 

[WeAAsles]

No doubt.



I think this answers your earlier question of why people vote the way they do.

I watched the PHL town hall video yesterday. The officer that spoke was great. Speaking that sort of truth to power has long been lacking for labor. That said, one guy at one meeting isn't enough. With the push of a button, companies can reach every employee. That means the Association has to spend a lot of time either countering the message, or furthering their own. My hope is the opt for the latter. Let management chase the message for once, ya know?

I personally hope that $6500 medical cost difference is a talking point everybody hammers constantly. That dollar amount, and how it relates to pay (he cited it as a 10-20% paycut) can't be overstated. I say that as someone that went from having pretty good insurance costs to outlandish ones.

Did someone provide you with the access to view all that was said at that PHL Town Hall? There was far more than just the one Negotiator who spoke. There were multiple participants hammering away at ISOM about that Medical expense and again I was glad to hear Isom explain to people how the Company is “Self Insured” which I’ve talked about here.

Essentially there are no “plans” outside what’s offered as “expenses” for Medical care offered by the Company and UHC Administers those offerings.

 

[WeAAsles]

What you did W was a lot of work and it does tell the true story. The problem is many people do not put that kind of effort into it.

I agree, you have commented in the past that you think/thought I was always a YES vote. I will never be a yes vote when a CEO says we will never lose money again. When a CEO says we will never say we can't afford it again. When a CEO can buy back stock and then turn around and sell shares to the tune of $19 million in one day and then with that ridiculous smirk on his face claim the contract being offered is industry leading. I will never be a yes vote when the CFO claims AA has more money than they know what to do with and then be part of the $10 Billion share buyback to enhance his portfolio.

I don't need to put numbers together W to say why I would vote no. But none of the numbers that you or I threw out there mean jack if the folks are not educated. I personally don't think the Association is anywhere close to educating anyone...as again in my opinion AA is being more proactive in their selling.

As has been for my 35 years, my vote is only one vote. You have 29,999 others who vote as well.

If for whatever reason somehow the Association was forced to release what AA has offered online and they went around having Roadshows to voice their displeasure I don’t see it passing.

You’re right that the Association has not continued to display what they are asking for and should maybe reiterate that firmly.

As far as I know there has been no change at all from what the Association originally presented as a proposal to the Company back when they first sat down with them almost 2 and a half years ago now?

And people chose to listen to what the Company wants to sell them as a choice because yes it is the Company who signs the paychecks.

And I am glad to read you state that you would be a no vote if this were rolled out to us.

When something is rolled out to us for real I’ll listen to why my Negotiators decided to release it and I’ll do my research and vote both what I feel is best for ME first and then weigh how I think it works for the collective.

But my vote won’t be made with any emotions.

 

[Kev3188]

The IAMAW sent a YouTube clip of it out to everyone.

If there is another place where I can see the rest of the Town Hall, please point me in that direction. In the meantime, I'll take your word for it that Isom got pounded, but again, one meeting does not an entire system make.

 

[WeAAsles]

I don't "hate" anyone.

People are certainly free to vote as they wish. I'm certainly free to point out that it often winds up going against their best interests long term.

Less stations= less power collectively.
Give away language= Good luck ever regaining it.

Well I’ve always had the impression that small station members have little to no regard for those of us who work in and moved to Hub Stations. We made our choices for better security and they made their choices to walk the razors edge.

Now another item I don’t like in the Company’s online offer was only keeping the 40 Stations we have now and no talk of reopening at least the ones we lost at the hand of a GD BK gun held to our heads. Kev if you listened to the video the Company almost makes it sound like they’re doing us a favor in granting those cities asylum.

Yes I have a major problem with that piece of their POS offer too.

 

[WeAAsles]

The IAMAW sent a YouTube clip of it out to everyone.

If there is another place where I can see the rest of the Town Hall, please point me in that direction. In the meantime, I'll take your word for it that Isom got pounded, but again, one meeting does not an entire system make.

Unfortunately Kev you’re goin to have to trust someone who you “chose” to trust on what’s going on in those Townhalls. Obviously we can’t share them if we value our jobs.

Parker was pounded in MIA and ISOM was pounded in PHL.

DFW is coming up to bat again.