American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[PIEDMONT784]

Don’t forget his ability to consistently lead guys like you around by the nose.

Agreed, his charismatic allure has even placed proverbial "nose rings" attached to his little finger, into individuals that don't even work for the company, aren't unionized, or even have an interest in our affairs, other than to interfere. The attraction is so strong, these same individuals have been lead around this very forum by the nose every day for years, ready to pounce in his defense on a moments notice....

With Tim watching perhaps the IAM will play it straight from now on either that or they will try to give him a cushy union job which they might any way if he goes against the DL And Jetblue recruiting

More than likely, they will simply ignore him as they have been doing. They will confidently sit on the sidelines and watch him continue to make a fool of himself with lost elections, DOL appeals, complaints, and bizarre self proclamations of power in this forum. It's like watching a low budget reality show...

>SPIT<

 

[WeAAsles]

Show me more than a couple of posts here where a LUS poster has NOT mentioned medical as his or her's main issue.
I will say this again and again...for the lUS side, medical is the deal breaker...For the TWU it is scope......
As far as for me believing or NOT believing the communications regarding fuel and labor costs, it does not matter what you or I think..It is what Wall St. thinks....
I would think you of all people, WeAAz would not be naive enough to expect that the company will give us EVERYTHING we desire at WHATEVER cost to their bottom line. I am fully aware of their profits...
All I am saying is that I am realistic enough to think it is not that cut and dry.

Metal you just had last night not one but two Fleet Negotiators come on here and say that they were not rigid when it came to Negotiations. So where is anyone getting this term “deal breaker” from? Sounds like NYers old “must have” crap to me.

Where have I ever said that the Company is going to give us EVERYTHING? You guys have put it totally and completely in your own minds now that both the Company and the Association have “dug in” when again that is just NOT TRUE.

And yes a few IAM posters here have defended their Medical. They’ve defended their Medical because TWU posters on here keep attacking it. I bet if you attack their Catering work they’ll defend that too.

 

[MetalMover]

Metal you just had last night not one but two Fleet Negotiators come on here and say that they were not rigid when it came to Negotiations. So where is anyone getting this term “deal breaker” from? Sounds like NYers old “must have” crap to me.

WeAAz, my opinion is mostly from I read here! I do not work side by side with any LUS workers. It is all about the reaction here! Then there are those updates by the ASSociation driling the word MEDICAL into our collective heads as a main sticking point in talks.

Where have I ever said that the Company is going to give us EVERYTHING? You guys have put it totally and completely in your own minds now that both the Company and the Association have “dug in” when again that is just NOT TRUE.

I never said you said it, I said i would "think" you weren't that naive. But you also said that because of record profits they can afford good contracts AND medical.. I agree....But what I am saying is they are NOT going to do that.....NOT WITHOUT getting SOMETHING IN RETURN........
They want to continue enjoying record profits,,,,,what company doesn't.....Regardless of profits, giving the LUS medical to the TWU then subsequently the rest of the company will increase their costs, NO?

And yes a few IAM posters here have defended their Medical. They’ve defended their Medical because TWU posters on here keep attacking it. I bet if you attack their Catering work they’ll defend that too.

No one is attacking it per se......But to have a minority number hold the majority hostage is not fair either....

 

[WeAAsles]

This comment seems to imply that neither side has become rigid and unmovable as some posters on here seem to believe? (Many posters actually)

That’s a fair statement

I would agree with CB in several areas including we aren't rigid, we won't get 100% of everything we want, the offer from the company to date is poor, we haven't been done and are still negotiating, and the likelihood of section 6 is 50/50 IMO.

P. Rez

Metal did you catch these two comments? These are the REAL thoughts of the Negotiators themselves, not what people speculate they are thinking.

 

[MetalMover]

Metal did you catch these two comments? These are the REAL thoughts of the Negotiators themselves, not what people speculate they are thinking.

Their THOUGHTS, WeAAz...are no more or no less valid than my OWN opinions.....
It is getting awful close to September.......After watching the latest town hall, it seems more likely Section 6 is approaching fast.

 

[NYer]

The IAM giving up their good situation would be bad business. I respect that they are putting their members first . Do people really think AA is going to cave on the medical with all the other work groups in the LAA plan? That would be really bad business by AA. The dog of the group is really the TWU, who IMO made a bad business decision to agree to the Association. I recall when the TWU informed the membership about the Association thinking this sounds not good. It's like you had 3 aces in a game of poker and you fold and lose to a guy with a pair of 3's. I don't mean to slight the IAM, as I agree with their holding firm on the medical as a smart business practice. My opinion of the TWU has gone down quite a bit the past few years seeing their bumbling business practices.

This isn't being held up simply because of the medical. If this was the TWU instead of the Association, we could have hypothetically given them the medical months ago, but we'd still be dealing with the scope changes.

We'd also could potentially have an AMP drive and another drive by IAM members trying to regain control.

 

[WeAAsles]

Metal the APA negotiates for the Pilots of AA
The APFA negotiates for the Flight Attendants of AA
The CWA/IBT Negotiates for the PSA of AA.

The TWU/ IAM Negotiates for the Ramp and M&R of AA.

Of course if our Negotiators are able to negotiate a cost lower than 21% (Doesn’t necessarily mean 14%) the other Unionized workgroups are going to want to negotiate a lower cost as well.

Metal the Pilots negotiated a 16% 401k Contribution for themselves. Do you think they had ANY concerns or thought that other groups would want to ask for the same thing from the Airline? C’mon of course not.

So why do we think our Negotiators should have that concern or be concerned that the Company will think that way?

Hey here’s a great compromise I bet everyone can go for. Give us all a 16% 401k Contribution and I bet no one will have a problem going to the 21% Medical cost? Let’s argue for this instead then?

 

[WeAAsles]

Their THOUGHTS, WeAAz...are no more or no less valid than my OWN opinions.....
It is getting awful close to September.......After watching the latest town hall, it seems more likely Section 6 is approaching fast.

I’m sorry my friend but no their thoughts are FAR more valid then ours at this moment since they’re the gatekeepers.

They’re the ones who were voted in to represent their membership and have to also vote to pass on a deal to us. They have to be the ones willing to maybe compromise if necessary.

And if we are and continue to all be attached to each other than their votes count just as much as Gary Peterson’s and Dale Danker’s votes do as well.

And Metal if those two guys are saying that they aren’t rigid despite how you’re reading those “Official” updates my guess is the Executive Committee isn’t being rigid either.

 

[NYer]

Show me more than a couple of posts here where a LUS poster has NOT mentioned medical as his or her's main issue.
I will say this again and again...for the lUS side, medical is the deal breaker...For the TWU it is scope......
As far as for me believing or NOT believing the communications regarding fuel and labor costs, it does not matter what you or I think..It is what Wall St. thinks....
I would think you of all people, WeAAz would not be naive enough to expect that the company will give us EVERYTHING we desire at WHATEVER cost to their bottom line. I am fully aware of their profits...
All I am saying is that I am realistic enough to think it is not that cut and dry.

Would you rather they give us all we want and lay off thousands to pay for it?
Isn't that the same as current union members selling out the unborn in a way?

W believes who he likes. Reality has nothing to do with it.

The IAM is going to fight for their medical, as we would if roles were reversed. Eventually they will lose it which becomes more likely in Section 6. Hopefully they're trying to maximize a return for it

While we like to look at profits, everyone else in this looks at margins and right now the conditions in the industry is tightening with airlines announcing cost cutting measures.

Fuel prices have gone up quicker than ticket prices, which lowers capacity growth which lowers revenue until and if you can ticket raise prices. If one airline has an expense disadvantage then they can have a revenue disadvantage since other airlines can offer lower prices.

 

[Racer X]

Metal the APA negotiates for the Pilots of AA
The APFA negotiates for the Flight Attendants of AA
The CWA/IBT Negotiates for the PSA of AA.

The TWU/ IAM Negotiates for the Ramp and M&R of AA.

Of course if our Negotiators are able to negotiate a cost lower than 21% (Doesn’t necessarily mean 14%) the other Unionized workgroups are going to want to negotiate a lower cost as well.

Metal the Pilots negotiated a 16% 401k Contribution for themselves. Do you think they had ANY concerns or thought that other groups would want to ask for the same thing from the Airline? C’mon of course not.

So why do we think our Negotiators should have that concern or be concerned that the Company will think that way?

Hey here’s a great compromise I bet everyone can go for. Give us all a 16% 401k Contribution and I bet no one will have a problem going to the 21% Medical cost? Let’s argue for this instead then?

Sorry...my reply was meant for the above comment
I wouldn’t be so quick to agree with that. For instance; a new hire making $15/hr or so could be on the hook for $653.00 a month for family medical. I agree the 401k offer would be awesome... but that is money saved for a later time in your life. ( also agree that it is a necessity) but many worry about the future..in the future. Many of our members, in particular People earning the minimum, need their money NOW. So $7,800 yr. (approx)for medical is significant vs $1,100 yr. (approx) . ( 80% plans )

 

[WeAAsles]

It is getting awful close to September.......After watching the latest town hall, it seems more likely Section 6 is approaching fast.

So what on the Section 6 talks. Again you can read what the process is for yourself but it basically says that it’s a formal declaration that the Company and the Union will enter into Negotiations.

Since even the Association has put out that there has been movement on Maintenance Scope I suspect by the time if or when they file the formality they’ll only be a few issues left to be concluded.

And some have speculated that the Company will start back at square one. Let’s get freakin real here. The Company has been under no legal obligation to Negotiate right now. Separately we’re all under Contracts. Section 6 is actually the format that requires good faith Negotiations.

I challenge anyone to find me any Legal language that requires the Company to reach JCBA’s directly after a merger?

 

[Racer X]

Show me more than a couple of posts here where a LUS poster has NOT mentioned medical as his or her's main issue.
I will say this again and again...for the lUS side, medical is the deal breaker...For the TWU it is scope......
As far as for me believing or NOT believing the communications regarding fuel and labor costs, it does not matter what you or I think..It is what Wall St. thinks....
I would think you of all people, WeAAz would not be naive enough to expect that the company will give us EVERYTHING we desire at WHATEVER cost to their bottom line. I am fully aware of their profits...
All I am saying is that I am realistic enough to think it is not that cut and dry.

Would you rather they give us all we want and lay off thousands to pay for it?
Isn't that the same as current union members selling out the unborn in a way?

I disagree on your comment IAM vs TWU deal breakers.
If you listen to IAM, they say that medical is one of our toughest fights. BUT SCOPE IS OUR MOST IMPORTANT FIGHT... everyone on the NC for IAM have stated this. They know it doesn’t matter what the medical cost is or what your rate of pay is, or your sick, vacation, etc etc if you DONT HAVE A JOB.
With that being said... That does not mean that medical is not a priority. Nor does it mean that we should give up on medical to secure scope.

 

[WeAAsles]

Sorry...my reply was meant for the above comment
I wouldn’t be so quick to agree with that. For instance; a new hire making $15/hr or so could be on the hook for $653.00 a month for family medical. I agree the 401k offer would be awesome... but that is money saved for a later time in your life. ( also agree that it is a necessity) but many worry about the future..in the future. Many of our members, in particular People earning the minimum, need their money NOW. So $7,800 yr. (approx)for medical is significant vs $1,100 yr. (approx) . ( 80% plans )

I’m sorry Racer but if you read the post directly above yours the response you just gave is moot.

NYer who is on the Negotiating Committee himself has stated that you will lose any and all Medical costs advantages. So you now need to re-evaluate what you might be interested in to maximize your return? Exchange. Concession.

NYer is the evident authority possible spokesman for the Company who has stated to him that you relenting on your Medical cost is a “must have” They have conveyed this to him as he has repeated this statement often.

Unfortunately NYer though has not been able to convey WHY the Company “must have” your Medical and I think if that were conveyed their desperation in this area, it may make your generosity to relent that much easier?

Maybe one day you will have the opportunity to sit with NYer and ask him directly in person?

 

[AANOTOK]

I would agree with CB in several areas including we aren't rigid, we won't get 100% of everything we want, the offer from the company to date is poor, we haven't been done and are still negotiating, and the likelihood of section 6 is 50/50 IMO.

P. Rez

P. Rez,
Have some things improved enough to where the chances of Section 6 are 50/50. If I recall, a few posts back, quite a few as a matter of fact, I believe you stated we were headed that way in your opinion or Section 6 was likely. Not sure of your exact terminology, but IMO it seemed to be a bit stronger than 50/50. It was a ways back, to lazy to look it up, so I'll just take your word for it.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Agreed, his charismatic allure has even placed proverbial "nose rings" attached to his little finger, into individuals that don't even work for the company, aren't unionized, or even have an interest in our affairs, other than to interfere. The attraction is so strong, these same individuals have been lead around this very forum by the nose every day for years, ready to pounce in his defense on a moments notice....


More than likely, they will simply ignore him as they have been doing. They will confidently sit on the sidelines and watch him continue to make a fool of himself with lost elections, DOL appeals, complaints, and bizarre self proclamations of power in this forum. It's like watching a low budget reality show...

>SPIT<

no more iam elections for me. Nobody has ever won GL or 141 outside incumbants ever, minus our ticket in 08.
Im most likely going outside the constitution now. They have no power there. If they find that funny then oh well. dues objectors arent eligible to run for office. No worries.
Educating members about how to do the dues objector and following up with them will also be pursued. Gotta hit them hard again before delaney snagged me.
If they choose to make me a member in bad standing again then who the F cares again. I could care less since im done with the kangaroo elections.

At any rate, i may like the 30% petitions to switch under the nlra. Alot easier.