American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[swamt]

people are willingly ignorant. Morons and overrated. Thats how the twu survives.
Otoh, amfa did F up the card filing. They blew smoke up your arses or just werent prepared. The company went by the rules and amfa never filed on time. That was on amfa.

You are full of shite. AMFA did not screw up. American pulled a reach around with the NMB and set an only 3-4 hour window to get their list to Wash DC. All this after the ibt worked with AA to get this AMFA drive to go nowhere. Collusion between AA, TWU/IAM, the new asso., the ibt as well as the NMB to allow it all to happen because that's the way the company wanted it. AMFA never blew smoke up anyones arses and that is fact. All you industrial union lovers always lies out you arses anytime "AMFA" comes up. Nice try to deflect and spread more lies just like conehead said would happen, right on time as predicted...

 

[swamt]

I thought you thought the company dont give a damn?
I dont think the company is anyone's friend. It is a business, and if it gets a Perm Injunction then i would think that it meant business and that it would have a free shot to terminate anyone not doing its job. The union would most likely side with the company and keep you fired instead of allowing the tab to go up.

Samuelson said he is bringing the Bus mentality to the airlines and he made a catacalismic mistake.

The rabbit hole has an unknown depth at this time.

Its over Johnny.

my understan

My understanding is that the company will treat any PRO and massive fine against the Ass SEPARATELY from JCBA.
LMFAO. Fly mentioned that his gut feeling was that if the company waived the fines for a jcba then the Pilots and FAs would see the company as soft and possibly follow similar concerted effort strategy.

If that is the case then your mx group wont have a choice but to vote in amfa (AMP seems unclear) otherwise, the Ass will be dead.

Imo as long as a PRO is in place, then the company prolly wouldnt mind keeping the current contracts in place to save millions. And any "morale" problems could face terminations since the union advocated for that and a judge order could give credance that the company has some cleaning up to do. Many could be terminated.
Not saying its right but our knuclehead union reps walked right into an uppercut from a bigger man.

Basically, even without an immediate fine, the union is cuffed and dead with a PRO and Gary Petersons game plan will be a complete failure. He just didnt listen.

Speaking of morons out here as YOU brang up. It's a TRO by the judge not a PRO.

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - A judge on Tuesday ruled that AMR Corp, the bankrupt parent of American Airlines, can abrogate its collective bargaining agreement with its unionized pilots, signaling the likely imposition by AMR of unilateral work terms." -September 4, 2012

Yes. It was ruled that the company "could" abrogate. But the company chose NOT to after the judge did tell them that he would favor both sides getting back to the table and work it out rather than abrogating. Company took that advice and went back to the table and the Pilots got a much better deal done. Going the other direction would not have been good for either side or any of the AA employees and both AA and the PIlots saw the better in getting back to the table...

 

[NYer]

I can't believe he said what he said. "The union made a strong argument that the company needs to terminate the employees they feel did a slowdown." Why would anyone support such an action upon another fellow employee? And he has no clue what the write-ups are about that caused delays and cancellations. If they are legit and safety of flight issues, then nobody will get terminated. If they do you will have what just happened over here at SWA with all the employees involved returning to their jobs with full back pay as well as a penalty. The FAA punished SWA for doing this. The employees sued and won. Which very well maybe the reasons AA is holding off on terminating so quickly like SWA did, IT could come back and haunt them thru the FAA. To wish this or say it's a "good argument" is just not right. Trust me, no one wants to be out of a job while waiting for this pathetic asso. "TRY" to save their job for them. They would be out for about a full year even if they did get their job back, that would just suk to go thru...

Isn't it the case, at least with SWA Fleet, that suspensions are without pay?

 

[swamt]

Well, the company probably doesn't give a damn, even though I don't recall saying that.
On another subject, you have been suggesting that the Association could pass on the judges fines to the membership. Out of curiosity I looked it up, and it turns out we cannot be fined. Read the last few lines of the last paragraph. This is right out of the Taft - Hartley Act.

TITLE III [Title 29, Chapter 7, Subchapter IV, United States Code] suits by and against labor organizations Sec. 301. [Sec. 185.] (a) [Venue, amount, and citizenship] Suits for violation of contracts between an employer and a labor organization representing employees in an industry affecting commerce as defined in this Act [chapter], or between any such labor organization, may be brought in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the parties, without respect to the amount in controversy or without regard to the citizenship of the parties. (b) [Responsibility for acts of agent; entity for purposes of suit; enforcement of money judgments] Any labor organization which represents employees in an industry affecting commerce as defined in this Act [chapter] and any employer whose activities affect commerce as defined in this Act [chapter] shall be bound by the acts of its agents. Any such labor organization may sue or be sued as an entity and in behalf of the employees whom it represents in the courts of the United States. Any money judgment against a labor organization in a district court of the United States shall be enforceable only against the organization as an entity and against its assets, and shall not be enforceable against any individual member or his assets.

You members need to print this out a keep it. I still wouldn't put it past this pathetic asso. to try to set payments to somehow come from the members. Then a class action suit needs to happen when they try, and then fire them for Gods sake...

 

[NYer]

Speaking of morons out here as YOU brang up. It's a TRO by the judge not a PRO.


Yes. It was ruled that the company "could" abrogate. But the company chose NOT to after the judge did tell them that he would favor both sides getting back to the table and work it out rather than abrogating. Company took that advice and went back to the table and the Pilots got a much better deal done. Going the other direction would not have been good for either side or any of the AA employees and both AA and the PIlots saw the better in getting back to the table...

They did not get a much a much better deal. They gave up 17% of value like everyone else.

BK Courts always prefer a consensual del but by having a Judge say it is approved to abrogate the onus goes to the union, not the Company.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Well, the company probably doesn't give a damn, even though I don't recall saying that.
On another subject, you have been suggesting that the Association could pass on the judges fines to the membership. Out of curiosity I looked it up, and it turns out we cannot be fined. Read the last few lines of the last paragraph. This is right out of the Taft - Hartley Act.

TITLE III [Title 29, Chapter 7, Subchapter IV, United States Code] suits by and against labor organizations Sec. 301. [Sec. 185.] (a) [Venue, amount, and citizenship] Suits for violation of contracts between an employer and a labor organization representing employees in an industry affecting commerce as defined in this Act [chapter], or between any such labor organization, may be brought in any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the parties, without respect to the amount in controversy or without regard to the citizenship of the parties. (b) [Responsibility for acts of agent; entity for purposes of suit; enforcement of money judgments] Any labor organization which represents employees in an industry affecting commerce as defined in this Act [chapter] and any employer whose activities affect commerce as defined in this Act [chapter] shall be bound by the acts of its agents. Any such labor organization may sue or be sued as an entity and in behalf of the employees whom it represents in the courts of the United States. Any money judgment against a labor organization in a district court of the United States shall be enforceable only against the organization as an entity and against its assets, and shall not be enforceable against any individual member or his assets.

Thats true but it has nothing to do with assessments.
Local 1776 iam got sued for $850,000. Instead of being assessed, the GL subsidized the award and had the Local raise the dues substantually to the highest in our district by about $15 a month.

If the union is fined, the union will figure out a plan. And members can be assessed to increase funds. But any ruling by a judge wont place an assessment on members.

But, for a moment, are you suggesting the union would slash salaries or lay employees off?

 

[swamt]

Isn't it the case, at least with SWA Fleet, that suspensions are without pay?

Don't mean to sound uncaring here but I will be blunt. Don't know about fleet here at SWA, and don't care, as what they have in their contracts as they are no part of our "mechanics" contract, not even a group of, or within.
Referring to our fellow mechanics that were fired over legot write-ups, they all sued and got their jobs back, with full back pay and even a settlement amount that was kept quiet but a rather large sum. And yes, they were all unpaid while they off on terminations. We all started go fund me for some and raised enough to keep them going rather very, very quickly. The average time off is somewhere between say 9 months to 12 months. That, IMO needs to get greatly increased to more like 6-9 months or shorter. More priority for terminations should be in order.
Some suspensions are done with as well as without pay, just depends on what the company puts you on while waiting. I have seen it go both ways. But usually the paid suspensions only last to the fact finding and final verdict, then, if it's held up by company, they would be terminated with no pay until courts bring them back.

 

[swamt]

They did not get a much a much better deal. They gave up 17% of value like everyone else.

BK Courts always prefer a consensual del but by having a Judge say it is approved to abrogate the onus goes to the union, not the Company.

I know they did. My much much better was in comparo to what the mechanics ended up with. Pilots got snap back and other perks back after BK in the BK contract where the TWU did nothing of the sort for their groups. Sorry bout that. I was referring between the Pilots-F/A's and mechanics (as well as other groups under the TWU).

 

[Tim Nelson]

You are full of shite. AMFA did not screw up. American pulled a reach around with the NMB and set an only 3-4 hour window to get their list to Wash DC. All this after the ibt worked with AA to get this AMFA drive to go nowhere. Collusion between AA, TWU/IAM, the new asso., the ibt as well as the NMB to allow it all to happen because that's the way the company wanted it. AMFA never blew smoke up anyones arses and that is fact. All you industrial union lovers always lies out you arses anytime "AMFA" comes up. Nice try to deflect and spread more lies just like conehead said would happen, right on time as predicted...

i wish amfa the best and our aa mx and the whole craft would be much farther along if amfa represented them.
But at best, amfa wasnt prepared and got outsmarted. Dumb.
I petitioned cards alot and i understand. There was no NMB conspiracy against amfa. Same rules for everyone.

I cant speak for amfa but maybe they didnt think the ibtwas in cahoots with the other unions after the failed ibt lus thingy.

Who knows, but a true discredit to sound thinking for you to hold the position that the NMB bent the rules to keep out amfa. If you truly believe that conspiracy then please say hello to the Easter Bunny for me.

 

[swamt]

i wish amfa the best and our aa mx and the whole craft would be much farther along if amfa represented them.
But at best, amfa wasnt prepared and got outsmarted. Dumb.
I petitioned cards alot and i understand. There was no NMB conspiracy against amfa. Same rules for everyone.

I cant speak for amfa but maybe they didnt think the ibtwas in cahoots with the other unions after the failed ibt lus thingy.

Who knows, but a true discredit to sound thinking for you to hold the position that the NMB bent the rules to keep out amfa. If you truly believe that conspiracy then please say hello to the Easter Bunny for me.

NMB could have made a motion to give at least a full 24 hours after receiving the flawed and eronus list from AA in a record "same day". And yes AMFA could have been a bit more prepared, agree there, but it was collusion between many groups with AA and teamster and asso. being the absolute main 3 for sure.

 

[V.O. Reason]

One thing is for certain the big losers in all this crap and delays are the members. We had an opportunity to make some real gains in pay and benefits but now we are screwed behind all this for who knows how long

 

[Vortilon]

i wish amfa the best and our aa mx and the whole craft would be much farther along if amfa represented them.
But at best, amfa wasnt prepared and got outsmarted. Dumb.
I petitioned cards alot and i understand. There was no NMB conspiracy against amfa. Same rules for everyone.

I cant speak for amfa but maybe they didnt think the ibtwas in cahoots with the other unions after the failed ibt lus thingy.

Who knows, but a true discredit to sound thinking for you to hold the position that the NMB bent the rules to keep out amfa. If you truly believe that conspiracy then please say hello to the Easter Bunny for me.

Well, you're partly right. The problem a lot of us have, is that a large percentage of the authorization cards that the IBT turned in were forged. At that point, the NMB - if they had one scintila of integrity, should have disqualified the IBT submission entirely. Conveniently enough, that didn't happen, and there were no legal repercussions for the IBT for their fraud attempt on the NMB.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Speaking of morons out here as YOU brang up. It's a TRO by the judge not a PRO.


Yes. It was ruled that the company "could" abrogate. But the company chose NOT to after the judge did tell them that he would favor both sides getting back to the table and work it out rather than abrogating. Company took that advice and went back to the table and the Pilots got a much better deal done. Going the other direction would not have been good for either side or any of the AA employees and both AA and the PIlots saw the better in getting back to the table...

kindly review what I said. I was referring to any permanent, not the current Temp. Got it Einstein?
Sheesh!

 

[Tim Nelson]

the NMB d

Well, you're partly right. The problem a lot of us have, is that a large percentage of the authorization cards that the IBT turned in were forged. At that point, the NMB - if they had one scintila of integrity, should have disqualified the IBT submission entirely. Conveniently enough, that didn't happen, and there were no legal repercussions for the IBT for their fraud attempt on the NMB.

idnt have the authority to disqualify and reset the previous bar.

 

[NYer]

Don't mean to sound uncaring here but I will be blunt. Don't know about fleet here at SWA, and don't care, as what they have in their contracts as they are no part of our "mechanics" contract, not even a group of, or within.
Referring to our fellow mechanics that were fired over legot write-ups, they all sued and got their jobs back, with full back pay and even a settlement amount that was kept quiet but a rather large sum. And yes, they were all unpaid while they off on terminations. We all started go fund me for some and raised enough to keep them going rather very, very quickly. The average time off is somewhere between say 9 months to 12 months. That, IMO needs to get greatly increased to more like 6-9 months or shorter. More priority for terminations should be in order.
Some suspensions are done with as well as without pay, just depends on what the company puts you on while waiting. I have seen it go both ways. But usually the paid suspensions only last to the fact finding and final verdict, then, if it's held up by company, they would be terminated with no pay until courts bring them back.

Point being, the penalty for the alleged participants in the job action in SWA lost pay because of their suspensions. They got it back, but that's was much later.

TWU suspensions are paid so that same tactic would be less effective. To be more effective, they'd pursue a Permanent Injunction, which if violated, puts more pressure on TWU because of the possible fines.

Different tactics looking for similar results.