Alpa Provides Proposal To Management

[Bear96]

So shoot me for being brutally honest.

Goodness, I don't want to SHOOT you! Then you wouldn't be able to post anymore. And I love reading your posts. I find your constant need for attention absolutely fascinating.

 

[mweiss]

in the cases of smart management like DL, keep things slightly better to ward of the threat of unions.

Now, see, this is funny. What you're saying is that the conditions are better at a nonunion shop than at a union shop specifically because it's nonunion.

Maybe smoking on airlines would have fizzled out on its own anyways eventually. But I don't think you can downplay the work unions, specifically AFA, did in this regard.

NW banned smoking on their flights and advertized it as a competitive advantage. They got a huge amount of positive press from it. How on earth can you conclude that they only did it because of AFA pressure?

But there would be a lot more fiery crashes if unions weren't being ever-vigilant behind the scenes to make sure corners aren't being cut and employees can voice their concerns without fear of retribution

This exists anyway. Sure, the unions help in this regard, and I don't want to downplay the benefit of having people whose job it is to navigate through the red tape. The union leadership makes it easier, but again it's not the sine qua non.

Unions are most useful putting pressure on safety issues that we ARE aware of but that management wants to disregard anyways.

I'd say that this is the greatest strength of a union in the industry. If they'd stick to this role, I'd have nothing to complain about. It's at times like the "industry-leading contract" death spiral of 1999 that I wonder if the benefits are worth the cost.

You keep saying that, yet you never pass up a chance to post something negative or take a dig at unions on this message board, and I don't think I have *ever* seen anything posted by you indicating the tiniest acknowledgement that maybe unions have done something beneficial in the industry over the years.

Only because there's such a loud voice of "unions can do no wrong" on this board. Sort of trying to keep the balance.

 

[Bear96]

Now, see, this is funny. What you're saying is that the conditions are better at a nonunion shop than at a union shop specifically because it's nonunion.

I did not say CONDITIONS are better. To the contrary. I meant pay (sorry, should have been more clear). DL management is smart to keep something as obvious as hourly flight pay higher. Overall conditions, though, when you look at their total package, work rules, etc., are actually worse. That is what is so smart about how DL handles it. They throw their F/As a bone in terms of a high hourly flight pay rate, which gets the most attention. Meanwhile they can get away with giving less in other areas. So far it seems to be working for them.

NW banned smoking on their flights and advertized it as a competitive advantage. They got a huge amount of positive press from it. How on earth can you conclude that they only did it because of AFA pressure?

I did not say smoking is gone ONLY because of AFA pressure. Are you saying it would have gone away on its own, when it did, without the work of unions?

It's at times like the "industry-leading contract" death spiral of 1999 that I wonder if the benefits are worth the cost.

That, I agree with-- the worst example perhaps being ALPA at UAL in 2000.

Only because there's such a loud voice of "unions can do no wrong" on this board. Sort of trying to keep the balance.

I am sure the "unions can do no wrong" voices would say the same: they only respond when someone posts ignorant statements about the evils of unions they don't even belong to and know much less about than they think they do.

 

[mweiss]

DL management is smart to keep something as obvious as hourly flight pay higher. Overall conditions, though, when you look at their total package, work rules, etc., are actually worse.

So, perhaps the FAs are more intelligent than you give them credit for, and they simply value the dollars more than the work rules. I suspect that'd be the opinion of much of the AFA membership as well, but they don't sit at the negotiating table. They end up being much like the President when legislation crosses the desk...no line-item veto. Vote up or down on the whole package.

Are you saying [smoking] would have gone away on its own, when it did, without the work of unions?

Yeah. There are plenty of better examples where the unions made a substantial difference. I don't think the smoking one is the smoking gun, however.

I am sure the "unions can do no wrong" voices would say the same

Fair enough. Perhaps I need to be more careful to be "fair and balanced." Whatever that means these days. h34r: