Alpa Merger Seniority Integration

[UseYourHead]

Now you have a great attitude and like myself, you sound as though you are ready to accept whatever the arbitration award ends up to be and move forward from there.

As with all the mergers I have been through there are many self-serving unrealistic folks on both sides who have set themselves up to be very disapointed when the process is complete.

This really is simple...there is process (ALPA merger policy), it will happen, an arbitrator will decide after considering the points of view of both sides along with him/her own assessment.

The award will be BINDING, so I would recommend for everyones sanity they get over now...it is out-of-our-hands.

Relax

Let's face it: both sides deserve a favorable integration but that just can't happen. I despise the expression "career expectations" so I won't use it. I prefer to focus on the ALPA merger policy regarding windfalls, as in, neither side should experience any at the other's expense. DOH turns almost all of AWA into furlough-fodder. If that isn't a windfall for USA I don't know what is. The AWA Merger Committee has an ex-TWAer on it so he knows full well what the downside potential is. I'm not going to argue for any specific integration scheme but I'll point out that if it comes to arbitration the "what happens when the company downsizes" scenario will be argued strongly.

And for the record I certainly don't wish to gain seniority at USA's expense, ie, no stapling of active pilots. Sharing the pain is fair.

Junior PHX A320 FO
Ex TWA

 

[PA18]

That was a Piedmont merge, not USAir.

True.

But in the PAI-AAA merger arbitration, the USAir pilots used the treatment of the Empire pilots as one of the centerpieces of their argument to prove just how greedy the Piedmont pilots were, and to blow the latter's arbitration case right out of the water.

However, after pointing out to the arbitrator just how unfairly the Empire pilots had been treated by the Piedmont pilots, the USAir pilots then turned their backs on the Empire pilots once the abritration case had been won. The Empire pilots' request to have their seniority issue revisisted fell upon deaf ears.

If the USAir pilots had done the right thing and restored the Empire pilots to their rightful seniority, then they could say of DOH, "We've always done it this way".

But they didn't.

So they can't.

 

[Salmon37]

Two excellent posts that summarize what I believe to be the position the USAirways Merger Committee and its attorney, Dan Katz should take.

Dan Katz? It that's the guy the U pilots have retained, its sayonara for the AWA guys. Having seen the results of a Katz merger, I'll bet on Katz.

 

[700UW]

Katz was the CWA's attorney during bankrupcty, what I observed of him in court was he was very knowledgeable and smart.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Dan Katz? It that's the guy the U pilots have retained, its sayonara for the AWA guys. Having seen the results of a Katz merger, I'll bet on Katz.

Here are a number of Mr. Katz's recent losses:

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2000/27n023.html

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter1999/26n21.html

http://vls.law.vill.edu/locator/3d/Jun1997/97a1622p.txt




The "victory" you speak of is a summary judgment win that was affirmed on appeal concerning a complaint that the CWA breached their duty of fair representation claim. Plaintiff's in those cases carry high burdens and evidently, the plaintiffs in that case didn't meet it. So the case was dismissed. Big deal.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:XVRu4...z+ranzman&hl=en

Not saying he's a bad attorney. A lot of times the best attorney in the world has no way of winning if the law is agianst them. There is nothing magical about the legal process, it is what it is. Our legal system is built on stare decisis meaning past precedent generally governs. But no one person is hercules and in this case, Katz has his work cut out for him. He's got at least two past U mergers where DOH wasn't used. Plus there's the landmark PanAm-National decision which has been cited numerously in not only NMB decisions, but also on appeal in the Circuit Courts. Plus there is the obvious fact it's an acquisition with corporate headquarters, management and financing all belonging to AWA. Finally, there is the glaring and obvious recent history of U's financial condition. From this he is going to argue DOH? Maybe Joe Peschi in "My Cousin Vinny" would feel comfortable arguing that and damn the consequences, but I'm sure an intelligent and seasoned attorney like Mr. Katz will not put forth just any argument other than the one which balances his client's interests with reality.

Whatever happens, I trust the process and the arbitrator. U has a very valid issue with age and clearly Katz will argue that. There is something to be said for favoring the U pilots in the sense that most of the AWA pilots will still get theirs since they are noticeably younger. But how much is tilted towards the U pilots is up to the arbitrator. Straight DOH would be arbitrary and amount to a precedent break with past NMB decisions concerning imbalanced mergers. On the other hand, 2000+ U pilots will retire in the next ten years, leaving behind an international network not contemplated by AWA pilots. On the other hand, bottom U pilots likely had no hope of seeing captain again and furloughees were likely out of the picture for good until AWA came along. All valid arguments. Let the arbitrator decide and from there we go on and never look back.

 

[traderjake]

No one should lose the seat they are in, but a 20 year PILOT should not be throwing gear for a ten year PILOT.

Why not? He obviously made better career decisions than you.

The fact that we are old and worked a long time for the previous company means it was a stagnant company. Should the pilots who worked for a growing company be punished for that?

 

[fatherabraham]

On the other hand, bottom U pilots likely had no hope of seeing captain again and furloughees were likely out of the picture for good until AWA came along. All valid arguments. Let the arbitrator decide and from there we go on and never look back.
[/quote]

aquagreen73s,

Post of mine from " pilot sue alpa..." # 190 disagrees with above statement.

"Recently saw the numbers of a " less senior " furloughed pilot in the seniority number range of around 4800. His projected sen. # at age 55 is less than 100 and top ten at age 60. These calculations were based on alpa (east) projections ( not included awa list ) and not subjective.
"

FA

 

[a320av8r]

Why not? He obviously made better career decisions than you.

The fact that we are old and worked a long time for the previous company means it was a stagnant company. Should the pilots who worked for a growing company be punished for that?

Not really. When I got hired by Piedmont we were financially strong, growing, etc...
Then through no fault of our own (pilots) we were bought by USAir. They had no widebodies and no international presence (like AWA). Although we too wanted relative position, we got DOH. As a result our "career expectations" were greatly diminished. Was that subsequent merger a career decision?
You never know what you are going to get, one day your at the top, the next your at the bottom.

DOH, PERIOD.

 

[autofixer]

Amen...I turned down AMR and Tigers (FedEx) to go to PI, a great growing company. I never applied at USAir. That argument just does not wash.

Watch what you wish on someone in this industry it may come around and bite you...the United thing is not dead yet.

 

[aquagreen73s]

On the other hand, bottom U pilots likely had no hope of seeing captain again and furloughees were likely out of the picture for good until AWA came along. All valid arguments. Let the arbitrator decide and from there we go on and never look back.
aquagreen73s,

Post of mine from " pilot sue alpa..." # 190 disagrees with above statement.

"Recently saw the numbers of a " less senior " furloughed pilot in the seniority number range of around 4800. His projected sen. # at age 55 is less than 100 and top ten at age 60. These calculations were based on alpa (east) projections ( not included awa list ) and not subjective.
"

FA

I think I understand what you are saying; should U Air have stayed in business, then this pilot would have retired in the top ten just based on attrition alone. But it's likely his or her seniority number would have been meaningless in the near future had the AWA merger not occured. Plus, it would be difficult to say he gets screwed in this given his long time left flying. Even if he were put at the absolute bottom (I doubt very seriously that will happen) but just for the sake of argument, if he did go to the bottom he'd still be a captain sooner because there would be U retirements plus the AWA retirements. In effect, he'd have the advantage of U+AWA pilots retiring, instead of just U pilot retirements. But I doubt the furloughees with 15 years of longevity will go to the bottom. My guess on the ultimate integration will be to integrate using a weighted longevity formula. Somebody with fifteen years at U that's now on the street is likely to integrate somewhere around senior AWA f/o or perhaps very junior captain. But that's just a guess.

 

[A320 Driver]

True.

But in the PAI-AAA merger arbitration, the USAir pilots used the treatment of the Empire pilots as one of the centerpieces of their argument to prove just how greedy the Piedmont pilots were, and to blow the latter's arbitration case right out of the water.

However, after pointing out to the arbitrator just how unfairly the Empire pilots had been treated by the Piedmont pilots, the USAir pilots then turned their backs on the Empire pilots once the abritration case had been won. The Empire pilots' request to have their seniority issue revisisted fell upon deaf ears.

If the USAir pilots had done the right thing and restored the Empire pilots to their rightful seniority, then they could say of DOH, "We've always done it this way".

But they didn't.

So they can't.

Greedy...

How would you define wanting full credit on an all jet airline for your 10 to 19 seat aircraft time? I didn't get it and neither did anyone else at Piedmont except those that worked for Piedmont Aviation on the King Airs. I think there was enough greed to go around on both sides of that seniority argument.

A320 Driver

 

[BottomFeeder]

Why not? He obviously made better career decisions than you.

The fact that we are old and worked a long time for the previous company means it was a stagnant company. Should the pilots who worked for a growing company be punished for that?

traderjake,

How deja-vue is this statement you just made. I remember being a new hire s/o on the 72. We had a jumpseater from Eastern that got an earful from the c/o all the way to LAX. The c/o told the jumpseater how much of a fool he was for the bad career decision he made with Eastern. That c/o sounds like it could be your brother or maybe your father.

I just want you to know that at the time of the stupid c/o statements to the jumpseater. Usair was the fastest growing darling of the industry. A company that had never came close to bankruptcy unlike the AWA your refering to.

Did your dad or brother work for Usair?

 

[supercruiser]

However, after pointing out to the arbitrator just how unfairly the Empire pilots had been treated by the Piedmont pilots, the USAir pilots then turned their backs on the Empire pilots once the abritration case had been won. The Empire pilots' request to have their seniority issue revisisted fell upon deaf ears.

ALPA merger policy doesn't allow for the moving of pilots on their respective seniority lists either before or after the merger of the lists. That would have violated the arbitrators ruling by attempting to change the lists after he had ruled. Whoever is senior or junior to you on your current seniority list will still be senior or junior to you after the merger(s). While it might have been great for the Empire pilots to have gotten a better deal for themselves during the US PI merger, there was no way the US side could have changed the makeup of the PI seniority list.

supercruiser

 

[767jetz]

Not really. When I got hired by Piedmont we were financially strong, growing, etc...
Then through no fault of our own (pilots) we were bought by USAir. They had no widebodies and no international presence (like AWA). Although we too wanted relative position, we got DOH. As a result our "career expectations" were greatly diminished. Was that subsequent merger a career decision?
You never know what you are going to get, one day your at the top, the next your at the bottom.

DOH, PERIOD.

Interesting discussion on this thread. Reminds me of 2000.

Let me see if I got this straight. You're saying that you got screwed by DOH as a Piedmont pilot because your "career expectations" were greatly diminished, so now its your right to screw the AWA guys with DOH in return. Does that about cover it???

 

[exB717Flyer]

Today your MEC Officers in attendance at the ALPA Executive Board
Conference in Herndon, Virginia, received word from Association President
Captain Duane Woerth that the Executive Council has established October
24, 2005 as the Policy Initiation Date (PID) for the America West-US
Airways merger.

In light of your MEC Officers’ discussion before the Council yesterday,
Captain Woerth has granted an immediate 30-day extension to the
timeline, thereby allowing both sides more time to compile and certify their
respective seniority lists. The PID is the initial step in the formal
process for seniority list integration and is defined in the ALPA
Administrative Manual as the date on which “a reasonable probability of a
merger being consummated exists…â€￾

Pilots should keep in mind that further extensions to the timeline can
be requested from the Association’s President as circumstances warrant.