Alpa Merger Seniority Integration

[N924PS]

It's immoral and unethical to put a First Officer who can't hold Captain at USAirways ahead of a AWA Captain. It's a windfall for the USAirways First Officer.

It's immoral and unethical to put 2000 USAirways pilots ahead of all but the first 200 AWA pilots.

It was unfair in the past and it's unfair now.

I hope you're not on the Merger Committee. The first thing out of the arbitrator's mouth would be "Have you bothered to read the merger policy?"

No, I'm not on the merger committee. But I think you are too willing to cave early on this issue.

Although ALPA Meger Policy specifies "no windfalls", some pilots will experience a windfall as a result of this merger, regardless of methodolgy. Maybe you will be the lucky one this time.

 

[traderjake]

I'm not caving, I think we should be smart put forward our best argument.

"Date of Hire because we did it that way before" is not our best argument.

DOH is no longer in the merger policy and in fact violates goals 2 through 5.

 

[ClueByFour]

Please explain to me what is immoral or unethical about applying DOH?

Because the 7 year HP guy's 7 years hold much better expectations than the 20 year US guy.

The junior captain at HP is what, a 1998 date of hire? At US it's back to what, '86?

Sure, DOH is fair. Why should the entire US list go ahead of the junior captain?

 

[PA18]

Hopefully, you are not an ALPA Merger Committee or other representative of USAirways ALPA.

Please explain to me what is immoral or unethical about applying DOH? It has been the standard at every merger from Allegheny-Mohawk-Lake Central-PSA-Piedmont. Glaring exception; The Shuttle pilots were slotted. There weren't that many and most have or will soon be retired, hence the slotting.

Excuse me, but there is one other "glaring exception".

See my posts above.

And there were only 135 of those pilots, mostly hired after 1980, merging into a 2500-pilot airline.

 

[PA18]

When the airline began to shrink USAir and PSA F/O's who upgraded to Captain as a result of the merger remained Captains while Piedmont Captains were downgraded to First Officer. So yes, their jobs were taken from them.

That's why DOH is unfair.

The AWA 737 Captain who is a bolckholder should go ahead of the reserve US 737 Captain.

That's why slotted equipment ratio is probably the fairest system.

I may be wrong about the Piedmont F28 Captain pay rate. Was it $65K or $85K?

You're absolutely right. The 1991 downsizing did have that effect. And, worse than losing seats, many pilots were furloughed, as USAir kept most of the former PSA pilots (because of their DOH seniority), while parking half the ex-PSA fleet, and pulling out of most of the ex-PSA route system.

And the ex-PSA pilots, who could no longer hold captain positions in SAN, LAX, or SFO, did indeed come east -- just as today the former Piedmont pilots are migrating north for the same reason.

That's why even a fence, or a "no bump, no flush" clause becomes meaningless in a downsizing.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember the exact F-28 pay rate for either company, other than the fact that Empire's pay scale was a bit higher than Piedmont's B-Scale, thus necessitating the pay adjustment.

 

[N924PS]

Excuse me, but there is one other "glaring exception".

See my posts above.

And there were only 135 of those pilots, mostly hired after 1980, merging into a 2500-pilot airline.

That was a Piedmont merge, not USAir.

 

[john john]

You're absolutely right. The 1991 downsizing did have that effect. And, worse than losing seats, many pilots were furloughed, as USAir kept most of the former PSA pilots (because of their DOH seniority), while parking half the ex-PSA fleet, and pulling out of most of the ex-PSA route system.

And the ex-PSA pilots, who could no longer hold captain positions in SAN, LAX, or SFO, did indeed come east -- just as today the former Piedmont pilots are migrating north for the same reason.

That's why even a fence, or a "no bump, no flush" clause becomes meaningless in a downsizing.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember the exact F-28 pay rate for either company, other than the fact that Empire's pay scale was a bit higher than Piedmont's B-Scale, thus necessitating the pay adjustment.

The furloughed pilots in 1991 got there full paid for a long long long time because of a no furlough clause

 

[zflygrl]

I'm not an employee of this airline, but I think I try to stay informed and wade through all the BS to get to the facts of any topic here. IMO, I believe that if you are currently a Captain with the merged airline, you should stay there. The list for this group should be as follows: All pilots go on the list first. They would go in line based upon longevity in position. The second group should be all first officers, placed in line the same way as the pilots. Last should obviously be any furloughs, including the J4J personnel that are not at mainline. They should remain on furlough until the employees ahead of them move up. My reasoning is this. No one forced anyone to stick around through the bad times and put up with the crap at their company. Other opportunites have been there at other airlines in the past. You risked your career staying here when you realized that maybe this airline might not survive either BK. I'm not saying that you shouldn't pat youself on the back for the sacrifices, but this whole attitude of "I sacrificed therefore where is my reward" does not fly right now. Both groups need to work together now because you are coworkers now. Maybe it was right to screw over that person in the past, but I wouldn't give this company a chance in hell to survive if that doesn't change.

Nice idea...but that will not work when one company is older then the other. I feel it should go 1 for 1......now that is fair.

 

[N924PS]

Nice idea...but that will not work when one company is older then the other. I feel it should go 1 for 1......now that is fair.

Are you out of your mind?

Let's see USAirways Number 1 pilot was hired in 1966 and is an A330 International Captain. America West started operations in 1983.

One for one is DOA. Get over it girl.

How about DOH up to 1983, when AW started operations and then some slotting after that? Better yet Date of hire all the way, just like the Flight Attendants.

 

[elixir]

Nice idea...but that will not work when one company is older then the other. I feel it should go 1 for 1......now that is fair.

Thats the funniest thing I've read about this in a long time...thanks

 

[supercruiser]

The USAir and PSA pilots got away with screwing the Piedmont pilots, now they think they can screw the AWA pilots. Only one problem, ALPA changed the merger policy.

Revisionist history. US Air pilots didn't screw the Piedmont pilots at all. Piedmont pilots screwed themselves with their ridiculous presentation to the arbitrator, which he essentially disregarded completely. The neutral arbitrator ruled, and somehow you think the US Air pilots did something to you? The Piedmont proposal would have had some sons hired at Piedmont, senior to their fathers hired at US Air. It was a DOA proposal, and I'm sure the arbitrator tried to give some severe hints that it was, but the Piedmont pilots went for it anyway. It was so bad, the arbitrator didn't even try to "split the baby."

The ALPA merger policy today is the same as it was then, except the old policy had a "preference" for date of hire, notwithstanding the rest of the policy. The trick is to present a defensible position to the arbitrator, and not piss him off with something ridiculous, which not only leaves you with no input, but invites "penalties" by the arbitrator, for being so stupid.

supercruiser

 

[Pylit]

As a former captain and now a f/o, I somehow believe that my 20 years here should mean something. I'd just like to be able to afford to send my kids to college in the next few years....Slotting means I'm bolted to my right seat for the rest of my career. From where I sit, DOH with fences sounds eminently fair. No one should lose the seat they are in, but a 20 year PILOT should not be throwing gear for a ten year PILOT.

 

[elixir]

Totally understandable position to take...let the games begin...

 

[A320 Driver]

As a former captain and now a f/o, I somehow believe that my 20 years here should mean something. I'd just like to be able to afford to send my kids to college in the next few years....Slotting means I'm bolted to my right seat for the rest of my career. From where I sit, DOH with fences sounds eminently fair. No one should lose the seat they are in, but a 20 year PILOT should not be throwing gear for a ten year PILOT.

So how do your remedy the 20 year F/O throwing gear for the 10 year Captain if someone doesn't lose their seat??? Growth? Give me a break. DOH with fences sounds great to you , but it is a screw job for the AW pilots. Fences don't work. Ask any former PI B-767 pilot how well those fences worked post merger...NOT.

We need to move away from these justifications for the land grab that DOH would be for U pilots. That's probably going to make you mad but the truth is the truth no matter how you spin it. There HAS to be a better system that will respect what you bring to the table just as it does longevity. Thats what I'd call career expectations. We open with DOH and the arbitrator will throw us out with the garbage.


Just my opinion...I'm entitled.

A320 Driver B)

 

[exB717Flyer]

Let's face it: both sides deserve a favorable integration but that just can't happen. I despise the expression "career expectations" so I won't use it. I prefer to focus on the ALPA merger policy regarding windfalls, as in, neither side should experience any at the other's expense. DOH turns almost all of AWA into furlough-fodder. If that isn't a windfall for USA I don't know what is. The AWA Merger Committee has an ex-TWAer on it so he knows full well what the downside potential is. I'm not going to argue for any specific integration scheme but I'll point out that if it comes to arbitration the "what happens when the company downsizes" scenario will be argued strongly.

And for the record I certainly don't wish to gain seniority at USA's expense, ie, no stapling of active pilots. Sharing the pain is fair.

Junior PHX A320 FO
Ex TWA