Alpa Merger Policy -- A Reminder
- Thread starter Furloughedagain
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mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
skyflyr69 said:The problem with you pilots is you don't have a real union, national seniority list or national pay scale like other MORE effective unions.
you guys need to do that RIGHT NOW. But with the attitude that the majority of you take by "screw the other group" i think hell would freeze over first.
Your only salvation is national list with national pay scale.
[post="263526"][/post]
The problem with the pilots is that there are guys like 320 who don't understand the difference between bus driver and airline pilot. His kind must save their job at any cost and use any excuse to do it. His kind has neither the guts or ability to imagine life outside the airline industry because he defines his very existence as being an "airline pilot" when in fact they have allowed management to define the pilot career as just another job. With the associated downgrade in pay, prestige and working conditions. This is one reason I left. The education, responsibility, training, physical requirements, and professionalism is worth substantially more than is being paid. But not to guys like 320. He accepts what is happening as part of the change. I do not.
As long as that kind of person remains "driving the bus" they will be treated like bus drivers and they will accept it as part of the industry change. The union is only as strong as people like 320. That makes it very weak. And the managements now know it.
Maybe a merger will rid U of Crellin. For the employees sake I certainly hope so.
mr
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Mwereplanes, with all due respect, your idea of union negotiations is flawed. The idea of “just saying no†in bankruptcy failed with every union giving the company more than the “askâ€. In fact, every union concession grew more as time went on culminating with the IAM-FSA and IAM-M giving more than “askâ€, which was the higest percentage "give" over the "aks" for any union.
A union is charged with getting the “best possible deal†and protecting its members, which did not happen with ALPA. The facts speak for them self. I want the best for every employee and the idea of just saying “no†does not work when the company has the bankruptcy court tool to trash contracts.
In regard to being a weak union, ALPA's RC4 was in charge of the MEC, used there "roll call" vote, and became the first MEC in the history of ALPA to provide a concession greater than the "ask". People like me were not in charge, people like you were and are the one's responsible for the current contract.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
A union is charged with getting the “best possible deal†and protecting its members, which did not happen with ALPA. The facts speak for them self. I want the best for every employee and the idea of just saying “no†does not work when the company has the bankruptcy court tool to trash contracts.
In regard to being a weak union, ALPA's RC4 was in charge of the MEC, used there "roll call" vote, and became the first MEC in the history of ALPA to provide a concession greater than the "ask". People like me were not in charge, people like you were and are the one's responsible for the current contract.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
What is your bottom line 320? At what point will YOU decide you've had enough? What is the profession (now a job) worth? Are you aware than a Greyhound driver actually can make more that U's Airbus Captains?
We can argue all day on who is responsible for your working conditions but the truth stares at you in the mirror each morning because you go to work and accept the nonsense. Imagine if ALPA were strong enough to SOS this business until the pension issue had been solved. Imagine if our MEC allowed the judge to decide and then the pilots all resigned because of not accepting this nonsense. Imagine if we collectively had the guts to stand up for the career. Regardless of the outcome.
Simply put, some of us were ready to stand for the career and you and your minions were not. And still are not. Truth is that all pilots have the ability to do things other than fly airlplanes. Most are too lazy or too cowardly to attempt it. That is why you accept half pay deadheads and voted yes on degrading a once proud career. Good luck to you.
mr
We can argue all day on who is responsible for your working conditions but the truth stares at you in the mirror each morning because you go to work and accept the nonsense. Imagine if ALPA were strong enough to SOS this business until the pension issue had been solved. Imagine if our MEC allowed the judge to decide and then the pilots all resigned because of not accepting this nonsense. Imagine if we collectively had the guts to stand up for the career. Regardless of the outcome.
Simply put, some of us were ready to stand for the career and you and your minions were not. And still are not. Truth is that all pilots have the ability to do things other than fly airlplanes. Most are too lazy or too cowardly to attempt it. That is why you accept half pay deadheads and voted yes on degrading a once proud career. Good luck to you.
mr
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
mwereplanes -
You are completely out of touch with reality. Try reading business section of the newspaper once in a while. Every legacy carrier is headed toward bankruptcy.
As long as the guy on the street is willing to do our job for less than what we make all saying no does is make us unemployed.
I'd rather have a job while pursuing other opportunities than be unemployed.
Save your "defending the profession" garbage for the union hall. I'm not falling on the sword for you or anyone else.
You are completely out of touch with reality. Try reading business section of the newspaper once in a while. Every legacy carrier is headed toward bankruptcy.
As long as the guy on the street is willing to do our job for less than what we make all saying no does is make us unemployed.
I'd rather have a job while pursuing other opportunities than be unemployed.
Save your "defending the profession" garbage for the union hall. I'm not falling on the sword for you or anyone else.
still with the union bravado...if changes to contract language is need for a merger, the company will ask the unions...they will say no way....The company will go the judge in C11 to harmonize contract language with Am West.. the judge will not object. If the employyes don't like it the alternative is a dismantaling of the company.... prety simple
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
traderjake said:
In that case, apply to the nearest transit authority in a large city nearest you. Give it 20 years, and you will be making more money than flying a plane with 150 souls on board, at least at U.
Sad, ain't it?
mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
traderjake said:
Jeez I didn't know that. Bankruptcy huh? Wow!
Try and understand what I wrote sparky. If ALL pilots understood and accepted that what we do is worth more than a bus driver we would have leverage. I agree there are fools who do this job for less. You being one of them. I quit 8 months ago. I know that pilots are not going to band together but you would think more than a few would stand up for the career (job as you so aptly put it).
Your falling on the sword crack is indicative of the problem. You and 320 are no different than the guys on the street. And you are free to continue to work for less and drive the wages and working conditions down. I choose not to. And that doesn't make me any better than you. Just more principled. But I suspect you are not pursuing other opportunities outside of flying. Because you'd have been gone by now if you were. It takes about 2 months to get a real estate license for example. About 4 months to open a Subway.
I know I can make more money outside of the "job". I won't accept less than what the skill, training, checkrides, physicals, responsibilities, travel, etc.... is worth. You obviously will. Along with your freinds on the street. Just to make sure you understand: This profession is worth substantially more than what U is paying. Substantially more. If you don't think you can do better outside of flying then you are sadly mistaken. At these wages you are wasting your time flying airplanes my friend. Trust me on that. You have much more skill than you realize. I wish more pilots understood that. Good luck to you.
mr
Couple of my friends went the real estate agent route. They absolutely hate it. Almost a 7 day a week job and people calling you at all hours and dealing with jerk people trying to get the best deal they can and you're stuck in the middle. He said it's a nightmare.
Franchises cost a fortune to set up and again it's almost a 7 day a week job and dealing with employees who don't show up for work or steal from the till. Lots and lots of work for something that MIGHT be succesful....or maybe you lose your life savings you poured into it.
If all you've done is fly airplanes all your life and now you're on the street, you will see how pathetic you are in the job market. You go in to interview for a sales job and there are 10 other guys who have experience in sales instead of being an airborne heavy equipment operator. Many pilots are shocked at what the job market is like out there. That's why many are even willing to go overseas to fly an airplane.
Franchises cost a fortune to set up and again it's almost a 7 day a week job and dealing with employees who don't show up for work or steal from the till. Lots and lots of work for something that MIGHT be succesful....or maybe you lose your life savings you poured into it.
If all you've done is fly airplanes all your life and now you're on the street, you will see how pathetic you are in the job market. You go in to interview for a sales job and there are 10 other guys who have experience in sales instead of being an airborne heavy equipment operator. Many pilots are shocked at what the job market is like out there. That's why many are even willing to go overseas to fly an airplane.
mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
CFM:
No one said anything would be easy or that you wouldn't have to work hard at what you choose. You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Working for someone instead of working for yourself.
Successful people don't make excuses or tell anyone how difficult things are or how a venture might not work. If they want to fly for peanuts or go to the middle east that is their business. I'm telling you they don't have to. But that is their choice. And the choice they have made is turning a proud career into just another job. I choose not to accept it. Others, like 320, feel they have no other choice. That is sad.
mr
No one said anything would be easy or that you wouldn't have to work hard at what you choose. You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Working for someone instead of working for yourself.
Successful people don't make excuses or tell anyone how difficult things are or how a venture might not work. If they want to fly for peanuts or go to the middle east that is their business. I'm telling you they don't have to. But that is their choice. And the choice they have made is turning a proud career into just another job. I choose not to accept it. Others, like 320, feel they have no other choice. That is sad.
mr
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Mwereplanes:
How do you know I have no other choice?
By the way, if you're so well off why are you participating on this message board and not making your millions? Why do you care to participate in this forum?
Ths issue here is simple: the RC4 is the first MEC leadership in the hisotry of ALPA to negotiate a contract with a "give" greater than the company's "ask". If you ask me, you are your leaders are incompetent. A union's responsibility is to get the best deal possible for the membership -- guess what, your team failed. The RC4 had the power and control of the MEC. If you're upset, be upset with those who negotiated the contract and the people in charge.
Meanwhile, this thread is about Merger Policy, but you continue with your tiresome posts over-and-over. Can we get back to the topic? Thanks.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
How do you know I have no other choice?
By the way, if you're so well off why are you participating on this message board and not making your millions? Why do you care to participate in this forum?
Ths issue here is simple: the RC4 is the first MEC leadership in the hisotry of ALPA to negotiate a contract with a "give" greater than the company's "ask". If you ask me, you are your leaders are incompetent. A union's responsibility is to get the best deal possible for the membership -- guess what, your team failed. The RC4 had the power and control of the MEC. If you're upset, be upset with those who negotiated the contract and the people in charge.
Meanwhile, this thread is about Merger Policy, but you continue with your tiresome posts over-and-over. Can we get back to the topic? Thanks.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
- Banned
- #28
So I guess it was the first time in HISTORY that the ALPA Membership ratified a contract with a "give" greater then the company's "ask".
And don't forget the previous MEC who voted to terminate your pension without a vote, so technically it is the second time that the MEC gave more then the ask.
And don't forget the previous MEC who voted to terminate your pension without a vote, so technically it is the second time that the MEC gave more then the ask.
You know, you flip flop like a freshly caught flounder on the dock...........USA320Pilot said:
Read your posts in this thread. http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14189
TheLarkAscending
Veteran
AAviator said:
