All unions must eventually support ALPA

[sfb]

diogenes-

You asked why US's CASM is so much higher than WN's. Well, labor/productivity/work rules is an important part of it. Take December, 2002. WN had roughly 35,000 employees while US had roughly 33,000 employees. WN generated 5.899 billion ASM's in December, compared to 4.150 billion ASM's for U. That works out to roughly 168,500 ASM's per employee at WN, versus 125,800 ASM's per employee at US (or nearly 34% higher productivity). Take aircraft productivity; WN had 375 mainline jets while US had 279 mainline jets. WN generated 15.7 million ASM's per jet while US generated 14.9 million ASM's per jet -- even though on average WN's jets are smaller and their stage lengths are shorter (and they fly no red-eyes).

Some of it is work rules; some of it is due to the hub system which causes inefficient use of labor. A lot of it results from the fact that the vast majority of US's employees are topped out on the pay scales, while WN's are not.

 

[tug_slug]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 1155 AM sabre wrote:
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[/blockquote]
Tugslug, Dave didn't take what he wanted, we gave it to him and that is why he has what he has. Plus I doubt if Diogenes actually implied that Dave was going to get it one way or the other.
Are you saying that the employees sacrifices wouldn't have mattered?
The IAM hasn't helped matters for us either. They have reduced theirselves down to a company mouthpiece.
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[/blockquote]
Excuse me??

Definition of the word "Give"
1 : to make a present of

When Bronner comes out and says either we get concessions or were going to liquidate hardly sounds like were GIVING Dave anything.

Definition of the word "Rape"
1 a archaic: to seize and take away by force b: DESPOIL

Dave has what he has because he used intimidation and the bankruptcy courts to get it.

Im not the strongest Union member around I do my 8 hours at work Im done for the day just like the majority of the people on this board. But I can say this whether its ALPA, AFA, IAM, Teamsters, or even AMFA they are virtually powerless when the company their dealing with is in bankruptcy. For you to say the IAM is nothing more than a mouth piece for the company is absurd!

Hypothetically speaking what would happen if all the Union's on the property unite? What are they going to do? Stand up to the company and say, "If you take away our pensions were going to strike!!"
Fact is if forming a coalition and standing up to the company would have worked it would have been done along time ago.

As long as the people who control the money have nothing to lose their going to call your bluff everytime.

 

[Braveheart]

LADIES & GENTLEMEN:

This bickering within the rank and file is a great instrument of happiness and joy among those 30 Vice Presidents and 1 CEO that view this site on a daily basis. These Union Buster Barbershop Quartet’s continue laughing and are saying “we got them nowâ€￾; read and view how unorganized they are and how they continue to blame each other.

What astonishes me is the feeling that all Unions cannot unite as one against the Crystal City Empire. Seigel should be told plain and simple – you and your staff take concessions or do not talk to any of us anymore. You and your quartet get no pay raises, no perk’s, absolutely nutta until every union employee receives back what they lost also and you take some major concessions also.

Those demands CANNOT be received if you continue to fight among each other. These requests must be worked out with all Union Presidents of US Airways and not the Internationals, but the actual groups getting hosed.

Without unity you will continue to remain divided, the Union Buster Quartet will continue to gain ground and all of you will continue too lose.

UNITED WE STAND – DIVIDED WE FALL

Seigel and AeroMan keep up the good work. Divided we are and we definitely are far from being UNITED.

 

[sabre]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 3:54:21 PM tug_slug wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 1155 AM sabre wrote:
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[/blockquote]
Tugslug, Dave didn't take what he wanted, we gave it to him and that is why he has what he has. Plus I doubt if Diogenes actually implied that Dave was going to get it one way or the other.
Are you saying that the employees sacrifices wouldn't have mattered?
The IAM hasn't helped matters for us either. They have reduced theirselves down to a company mouthpiece.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Excuse me??

Definition of the word "Give"
1 : to make a present of

When Bronner comes out and says either we get concessions or were going to liquidate hardly sounds like were GIVING Dave anything.

Definition of the word "Rape"
1 a archaic: to seize and take away by force b: DESPOIL

Dave has what he has because he used intimidation and the bankruptcy courts to get it.

Im not the strongest Union member around I do my 8 hours at work Im done for the day just like the majority of the people on this board. But I can say this whether its ALPA, AFA, IAM, Teamsters, or even AMFA they are virtually powerless when the company their dealing with is in bankruptcy. For you to say the IAM is nothing more than a mouth piece for the company is absurd!

Hypothetically speaking what would happen if all the Union's on the property unite? What are they going to do? Stand up to the company and say, "If you take away our pensions were going to strike!!"
Fact is if forming a coalition and standing up to the company would have worked it would have been done along time ago.

As long as the people who control the money have nothing to lose their going to call your bluff everytime.



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[/blockquote]


Who says Seigel or Bronner have nothing to lose? What the heck do you think they are here for their health?
They point a gun to your head, you point it back to theirs. Bronner stands to lose any potential gains if this thing sinks. Seigel loses out bigtime also and also loses out on all the "New Up and Coming" executives.

Tugslug, these guys don't understand solidarity one bit, they are numbers guys. If the US AIRWAYS labor forces join together then the BS will stop. We will find out quickly if managements plan is longterm or liquidation when we call their bluff.

 

[Biffeman]

Sabre, Bronner gets his money if U survives or liquidates, he is only in it for $300 Million at this point, U still has over $1.2 billion in unencumbered assets, he wins either way.

 

[Biffeman]

Once again you are wrong oldie, PBGC will take over the plan and its assets, they get no further funding from U.
From the PBGCs web page:
A plan that does not have enough money to pay all benefits owed participants and beneficiaries may be terminated only if the employer and the members of the employer's "controlled group" of affiliated companies each meets one of the distress termination tests. To do so, however, the employer must prove that the controlled group is financially unable to support the plan. PBGC takes over the plan as trustee and uses its own assets and any remaining assets in the plan to make sure that current and future retirees of the plan receive their pension benefits, within the legal limits. PBGC also tries to collect plan underfunding from employers and shares a portion of its recoveries with participants and beneficiaries.

Piney, our local it is two times the weighted hourly wage per classification. my dues are like $34 a month. And yes we took it in the shorts, but without union representation we would have been at the company's total mercy and all you have to do is ask the non-union people now and back in 1992.

There is no sense in decertifying and becoming an employee at will with no rights and being at the company's every beckon call and whim.

In 92, the non-union people had their pension frozen, lost their sick, vacation and oji time. In regards to ramp and customer service they cut 40% to part time forcing them to pay over $300 a month for insurance and so on.

And I am in CLT not PIT.

 

[A320 Driver]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 6:43:20 PM PineyBob wrote:

Biffe,
Help me out here please? Roughly how much are the monthly dues for a member of your union local?

Do the majority of you feel you got your monies worth for your dues?

Because I am trying to figure out exactly what those dues got you. If I took it in the shorts like you guys did, I'd be leading the charge to de-certify my union. That way I'd at least be able to buy food with my dues money or a couple cases of Iron City.


Bob,
You seem to be taking a great deal of pleasure in "stirring the pot" around here lately. Since you have no vested interest here, I'm just curious into what your getting out of all this.

A320 Driver

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 7:01:10 PM Biffeman wrote:

Once again you are wrong oldie, PBGC will take over the plan and its assets, they get no further funding from U.
From the PBGCs web page:
A plan that does not have enough money to pay all benefits owed participants and beneficiaries may be terminated only if the employer and the members of the employer's "controlled group" of affiliated companies each meets one of the distress termination tests. To do so, however, the employer must prove that the controlled group is financially unable to support the plan. PBGC takes over the plan as trustee and uses its own assets and any remaining assets in the plan to make sure that current and future retirees of the plan receive their pension benefits, within the legal limits. PBGC also tries to collect plan underfunding from employers and shares a portion of its recoveries with participants and beneficiaries.

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[/blockquote]
Hate to sound like a broken record, but YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN. Read YOUR last sentence. What about that don't you understand? You and Savy are the ones that said that taxpayers won't get the bill for this. I beg to differ. It has to come from somewhere. Man, are you clueless. The PBGC is, indeed, a creditor and has a place on the creditor committee. Once the pilot pension is dumped on them they will be #1 on the list for debt recovery. That's the way it works. Don't believe me, send an email to the PBGC. They will answer you right away, but their answers read something like chinese fortune cookies (not very definitive).

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 5:59:32 PM Biffeman wrote:

Sabre, Bronner gets his money if U survives or liquidates, he is only in it for $300 Million at this point, U still has over $1.2 billion in unencumbered assets, he wins either way.
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[/blockquote]
The PBGC is about to go to the front of the line. Maybe there'll be something left, maybe not...

 

[pitguy]

Piney,

I pay almost $600 a year in dues and yes I do feel it is 'taxation without representation'.

-------------------------------------------------------


Some pilots believe we in the mechanic group should forgot about 1992 , but I can assure you that most mechanics will never forget the problems the pilots caused during that strike. The actions of the pilots was "unforgivable". We all know if you are going to go out on strike you must be able to go it alone. Meaning you actually have to have a position that can not readily be filled or you can have issues for a successful strike. The pilot group will not strike on the pension issue due to the fact they truly know the monies are needed for keeping this company afloat. The number one reason to have a successful strike is for 'job security'. People will stay out if they feel they would have no job otherwise. Our pilot group does not have the resolve or the reason to have a successful strike and therefore it will never come to be over today's issue. They would cross their own lines in droves.

-I do find it funny how one pilot in here has denied doing any struck work in 1992, but he himself has previously admitted on this very same board that he re-positioned aircraft which is normally done by the mechanics. He also stated that he did 'whatever' was needed to be done such as cleaning planes, etc...

-I have know clue why this is, but in speaking to people who work in hotels and drive the hotel vans and in speaking to others that deal with pilots most say that pilots are arrogant and cheap. They also normally add that there are a few nice ones though. Why this is I do not know, but I have even heard it from military folks too.

 

[A320 Driver]

pitguy wrote:

-I do find it funny how one pilot in here has denied doing any struck work in 1992, but he himself has previously admitted on this very same board that he re-positioned aircraft which is normally done by the mechanics. He also stated that he did 'whatever' was needed to be done such as cleaning planes, etc...

-I have know clue why this is, but in speaking to people who work in hotels and drive the hotel vans and in speaking to others that deal with pilots most say that pilots are arrogant and cheap. They also normally add that there are a few nice ones though. Why this is I do not know, but I have even heard it from military folks too.

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[/blockquote]

That would be me. Yep, taxied two airplanes. How do you get taxiing A/C to be your job? I didn't clean any planes in 92 but I cleaned out a filthy seat back pocket on Sunday on a deadhead...so shoot me! I never bothered to ask any van drivers what they thought of mechanics either. I guess the thought never occured to me. You guys crack me up!

A320 Driver

 

[tug_slug]

[blockquote]
Who says Seigel or Bronner have nothing to lose? What the heck do you think they are here for their health?
They point a gun to your head, you point it back to theirs. Bronner stands to lose any potential gains if this thing sinks. Seigel loses out bigtime also and also loses out on all the "New Up and Coming" executives.

Tugslug, these guys don't understand solidarity one bit, they are numbers guys. If the US AIRWAYS labor forces join together then the BS will stop. We will find out quickly if managements plan is longterm or liquidation when we call their bluff.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Sabre I respect your opinion but the men and women we have chosen to fight this battle for us are using blanks, WE HAVE NO AMMUNITION. The only ammunition we have is to strike, plain and simple. Everyone knows what would happen if any one Union went out on strike at this point in time.

To prove my point ALPA was to appear before the bankruptcy judge to file a motion to object to U terminating their pension. If these were normal negotiations and U tried a stunt like what their doing now the pilots would have got up from the bargaining table and shut this airline down.

So whether its one Union or all the Unions combined their still limited as to what they can do.

As for Bronner this isn't his money his investing, don't you think he's got people he's got to report to? Don't you think he looked at the worst case scenario before he invested all those millions? Im telling you he's in a win win situation. Im not sure of his entire history but I think it would be safe to say this isn't the first time he's dealt with a Union before and it wont be the last.

Dave Siegel... When Mr. Siegal first took this job he himself said he wasn't in it for the money. Were talking about a 41 year old man taking a job and admitting he isn't in it for the money. This man is set for life! If U liquidates chances are one of his buddy's at one of the other airlines are going to set him up with a nice comfortable job making 6 figures.

You tell me do you think their worried? Its not like their going to have their pension pulled out from underneath them or their going to have their house repossessed because they've lost their job.

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 3:39:07 PM sfb wrote:

diogenes-

You asked why US's CASM is so much higher than WN's. Well, labor/productivity/work rules is an important part of it. Take December, 2002. WN had roughly 35,000 employees while US had roughly 33,000 employees. WN generated 5.899 billion ASM's in December, compared to 4.150 billion ASM's for U. That works out to roughly 168,500 ASM's per employee at WN, versus 125,800 ASM's per employee at US (or nearly 34% higher productivity). Take aircraft productivity; WN had 375 mainline jets while US had 279 mainline jets. WN generated 15.7 million ASM's per jet while US generated 14.9 million ASM's per jet -- even though on average WN's jets are smaller and their stage lengths are shorter (and they fly no red-eyes).

Some of it is work rules; some of it is due to the hub system which causes inefficient use of labor. A lot of it results from the fact that the vast majority of US's employees are topped out on the pay scales, while WN's are not.
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[/blockquote]
-------------------------------------------

Somehow, I knew it was labor's fault.

It's never management.

Never Project High Ground. Never Business Select. Never Metrojet. Never running two hubs in one state. Never leasing a/c at jacked up rates from former corporate officers.

Let's do some more apples and apples. Kindly cite a few instances where the U fleet or CWA contract is 'featherbedded', as opposed to WN's.

Thank you.

 

[A320 Driver]

[blockquote]
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On 2/6/2003 8:40:23 PM PineyBob wrote:


As for having no vest interest, I'll give you 257,000 reasons I am interested in how this plays out. My DM account has 257,000+ miles in it and I'd like the airline to stick around so I can redeem them someday. You have your pension, I have my miles. They are part of the compensation for a job that takes me away from loved ones.
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[/blockquote]

Ahh...EXACTLY. I'd like my pension that I've worked 21+ years for. It will take me 35 years on the job to get it. It is "part of the compensation for a job that takes me away from loved ones".
I understand how you feel. Please accept my apology.

A320 Driver[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']

 

[sabre]

[/blockquote]

Sabre I respect your opinion but the men and women we have chosen to fight this battle for us are using blanks, WE HAVE NO AMMUNITION. The only ammunition we have is to strike, plain and simple. Everyone knows what would happen if any one Union went out on strike at this point in time.

To prove my point ALPA was to appear before the bankruptcy judge to file a motion to object to U terminating their pension. If these were normal negotiations and U tried a stunt like what their doing now the pilots would have got up from the bargaining table and shut this airline down.

So whether its one Union or all the Unions combined their still limited as to what they can do.

As for Bronner this isn't his money his investing, don't you think he's got people he's got to report to? Don't you think he looked at the worst case scenario before he invested all those millions? Im telling you he's in a win win situation. Im not sure of his entire history but I think it would be safe to say this isn't the first time he's dealt with a Union before and it wont be the last.

Dave Siegel... When Mr. Siegal first took this job he himself said he wasn't in it for the money. Were talking about a 41 year old man taking a job and admitting he isn't in it for the money. This man is set for life! If U liquidates chances are one of his buddy's at one of the other airlines are going to set him up with a nice comfortable job making 6 figures.

You tell me do you think their worried? Its not like their going to have their pension pulled out from underneath them or their going to have their house repossessed because they've lost their job.
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[/blockquote]

Yes, I think Seigel and Bronner are worried. If ALPA let's them rape them dry then management stands to make MILLIONS. If ALPA takes them on then Dr Evil's won't have any more investors coming on board and no more money. You point your gun, I point mine. It's a game of tic tac toe and nobody will win. The only question is if ALPA wants to take it 'dry', lose out, and watch management prosper.