Aircraft maint issues

[AA89]

I’m not sure if the Negotiators actually feel comfortable accepting something like that? And wasn’t it our Generation who called the 83 guys pricks for screwing us over?

So now that we’re older ourselves everything’s cool?

Growing old does have a way of changing ones perspective on things.

I do agree that negotiators don’t want to bring back a TA that loses jobs, even through attrition. We are making billions so there is no valid reason. IMO that will be the sticking point that may drag this thing out like SWA and UAL. I hope I’m wrong but what’s to stop both sides from taking a hard line on outsourcing? The longer this drags out, the more pressure on negotiators to bring back a TA that they don’t want to. Evidently things are fine from the company’s point of view as planes and bags are coming and going at acceptable numbers.
No, I’m with you on not screwing even lower seniority guys much less new hires. But the best we can hope for is what a mediator might decide 6 years from now if we decide to draw a “no job loss” line in the sand today.

 

[MetalMover]

I do agree that negotiators don’t want to bring back a TA that loses jobs, even through attrition. We are making billions so there is no valid reason. IMO that will be the sticking point that may drag this thing out like SWA and UAL. I hope I’m wrong but what’s to stop both sides from taking a hard line on outsourcing? The longer this drags out, the more pressure on negotiators to bring back a TA that they don’t want to. Evidently things are fine from the company’s point of view as planes and bags are coming and going at acceptable numbers.
No, I’m with you on not screwing even lower seniority guys much less new hires. But the best we can hope for is what a mediator might decide 6 years from now if we decide to draw a “no job loss” line in the sand today.

In exchange for that line in the sand, are you willing to use those same 6 years and wait with NO contract at all?

 

[topDawg]

Even though this is very far off from what this thread is supposed to be about, this is the rest of the story.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...s-baggage-handlers-at-sea-tac-get-an-upgrade/

So if American lays you off tomorrow and starts it own version of DGS and will give the chance for a job at that company you'd be okay with it?

Oh PS, you won't get remotely what you got under your CBA, you get just over minimum wage.

I know you need to go to great lengths to defend the all holy industrial union but GMAFB with that.

Yes. way different formula.
Would it be safe to say LUS mechanics like their way better?

BTW, I think the recent TULE engine news, albeit good, is in exchange for something else. Don't know what, but something else.

probably is but might not be that work is going out. You guys are losing a lot of work just from the fleet replacements. At some point "new" work will have to come in.

Metal, maybe something to do with the new facility in Brazil?

Line hangar.

That's when it starts up. there is plenty of property surrounding it. i wouldn't exactly call it fake news. There is room for expansion.

I can't see your management being interested in that. They seem to want completely out of the maintenance business, at least as much as possible.

We have AA mechanics all over South America. I went to school with one from Medellin.

Most airlines do. We (Delta) have them all over the world. Much rather it be Delta employees than a vendor.

Also you guys have, or use to have, a hangar at EZE also. Not as big as the GRU project but I believe it is a single bay that can hold up to a 772.

Ok hold on maybe it’s me here? How exactly do any of my USA based AMT Brothers and Sisters benefit from the fact that American Airlines Management has assured us the World is just peachy keen fine and dandy because those workers “IN BRAZIL” are American Airlines (Not American) employees????????

Can I transfer down to Brazil and earn $30.00 per hour loading flights in GRU?

Welcome to the world of a global airline. Maintenance will have to be done outside of the US.

Metal I’m not arguing at all that AA doesn’t need to have workers in other Countries. I just don’t give a damn how they label them as long as they’re not taking any work that can be done here by FAA Certified, Random Drug tested, well compensated, professional, expert, A&P Licensed, spiffy USA stamp of approval AMT’s.

But I guess that’s just me?

So you would rather get on an airplane that just had a check done by who knows vendor with who knows what kind of training they get etc. etc. over someone employed by your own airline?

Outside the USA (AMERICA) who cares. How in the World does that effect or help you and I or our families?

What does the Cult-ure gain some quality control? I don’t own the Cult-ure.

Vendor
AA
Same chit

Yikes. No its not remotely the same chit. Quality of work is much better.
It matters when you fly on the plane, it matters to the mechanic when they get the plane back in the US and aren't having to fix a major f**k up by who knows vendor.

So this guy just automatically believes the company when they said that the hangar in Brazil will simply only put a roof over the existing maint they already do. What about the other line maint stations that do not have a hangar for line maint in the US? Why are they NOT getting any hangar built for them to do the line maint. under a roof? C'mon man, do you really believe that? That speaks volumes.

swamt, because its pretty rare that an international outstation gets the opportunity to get the touch time on an airplane like the deep South America turns. Plus American doesn't have many international stations where they have that many aircraft on the ground at ~the same time.

Just to be honest, I wish Delta would do the same and bring all the vendor work done down there in-house. I was quite happy about the new hangar in NRT.

 

[AA89]

In exchange for that line in the sand, are you willing to use those same 6 years and wait with NO contract at all?

That is a good question. I would like to think that collectively none of us will wait that long without getting fed up. Personally, I have picketed, work IAW, and don’t do anything extra. I just do my job. Other than that, as a union the RLA has our hands tied. So, to answer your question I have no choice but to wait on a TA and see what it looks like.
I see finger pointing here at SWA and their seemingly stalled negotiations. That could very easily be us.

 

[WeAAsles]

I do agree that negotiators don’t want to bring back a TA that loses jobs, even through attrition. We are making billions so there is no valid reason. IMO that will be the sticking point that may drag this thing out like SWA and UAL. I hope I’m wrong but what’s to stop both sides from taking a hard line on outsourcing? The longer this drags out, the more pressure on negotiators to bring back a TA that they don’t want to. Evidently things are fine from the company’s point of view as planes and bags are coming and going at acceptable numbers.
No, I’m with you on not screwing even lower seniority guys much less new hires. But the best we can hope for is what a mediator might decide 6 years from now if we decide to draw a “no job loss” line in the sand today.

I didn’t really express my opinion on the unborn but I think it should be a balance where you don’t burn down the bridge to a job just because you reached the promise land. What that mean’s depends on what’s offered.

We’re already probably going to screw the lower seniority guy if we vote on an extended payscale. Yes it’s a lot more money when he reaches top but if we pass that 11 year will he hate our guts for it still in 20 years?

 

[WeAAsles]

In exchange for that line in the sand, are you willing to use those same 6 years and wait with NO contract at all?

A la AMFA SWA? That’s been their position over there.

 

[WeAAsles]

So if American lays you off tomorrow and starts it own version of DGS and will give the chance for a job at that company you'd be okay with it?

Oh PS, you won't get remotely what you got under your CBA, you get just over minimum wage.

I know you need to go to great lengths to defend the all holy industrial union but GMAFB with that.


probably is but might not be that work is going out. You guys are losing a lot of work just from the fleet replacements. At some point "new" work will have to come in.

Line hangar.

I can't see your management being interested in that. They seem to want completely out of the maintenance business, at least as much as possible.

Most airlines do. We (Delta) have them all over the world. Much rather it be Delta employees than a vendor.

Also you guys have, or use to have, a hangar at EZE also. Not as big as the GRU project but I believe it is a single bay that can hold up to a 772.

Welcome to the world of a global airline. Maintenance will have to be done outside of the US.

So you would rather get on an airplane that just had a check done by who knows vendor with who knows what kind of training they get etc. etc. over someone employed by your own airline?

Yikes. No its not remotely the same chit. Quality of work is much better.
It matters when you fly on the plane, it matters to the mechanic when they get the plane back in the US and aren't having to fix a major f**k up by who knows vendor.

swamt, because its pretty rare that an international outstation gets the opportunity to get the touch time on an airplane like the deep South America turns. Plus American doesn't have many international stations where they have that many aircraft on the ground at ~the same time.

Just to be honest, I wish Delta would do the same and bring all the vendor work done down there in-house. I was quite happy about the new hangar in NRT.

# 1 I didn’t defend anything so pay attention and get off your high horse. All I did was give you the rest of the story that you seem to have gone on immediate defense for.

# 2 So far MetalMover seems to be the only one who got where I was going in my conversation on overseas vendors. Others like yourself may be a little bit more Cult-ured (Rah Rah Company) than you knew. When I become a Corporate Executive then I’ll start waving my Pom Poms.

 

[Tom Talbert 1888]

I foresee a blended scope, I see the 50% of billable hours of heavy being reduced, (the only reason we got stuck with that was because of the merger as HP outsourced all of heavy except they did do some C-Checks in PHX and our CBA being abrogated).

I also see some kind of component formula for outsourcing as we lost all of that work in the second bankruptcy, as LUS farms out all components, and LAA doesnt.

And I see the LUS scope in regard to line, which is it cant be farmed out.

 

[WeAAsles]

That is a good question. I would like to think that collectively none of us will wait that long without getting fed up. Personally, I have picketed, work IAW, and don’t do anything extra. I just do my job. Other than that, as a union the RLA has our hands tied. So, to answer your question I have no choice but to wait on a TA and see what it looks like.
I see finger pointing here at SWA and their seemingly stalled negotiations. That could very easily be us.

I don’t know if it’s finger pointing as much as their Leadership have made the “choice” to not accept a TA to bring back to the Membership that would cost jobs.

The question I had with them and eventually we would have to ask ourselves the same thing is.

Do the Union Leadership whether voted in or not have the right to withhold the ultimate decision from the Membership after over 5 years now?

Honestly I’d be very pissed off if it got that far and they didn’t let me be a man and make up my own mind and send the message to the Company. It’s Chickenchit after awhile to not trust the Membership you represent who voted you in.

And we’re not there yet at 2 years cause we have been moving and we did get relief in Wages. But if we do get there?

 

[AA89]

I don’t know if it’s finger pointing as much as their Leadership have made the “choice” to not accept a TA to bring back to the Membership that would cost jobs.

The question I had with them and eventually we would have to ask ourselves the same thing is.

Do the Union Leadership whether voted in or not have the right to withhold the ultimate decision from the Membership after over 5 years now?

Honestly I’d be very pissed off if it got that far and they didn’t let me be a man and make up my own mind and send the message to the Company. It’s Chickenchit after awhile to not trust the Membership you represent who voted you in.

And we’re not there yet at 2 years cause we have been moving and we did get relief in Wages. But if we do get there?

Yes I agree that at some point the membership should have the right to make the decision. From what it sounds like they are happy enough with the contract they have to wait the company out and had the looming ETOPS issue to use as leverage. I believe their leadership sent out a poll to the memebers to see where they stood on the issues too?
The SWA guys can straighten me out if those aren’t the facts but if true might explain their patience.

 

[B737 driver]

That is a good question. I would like to think that collectively none of us will wait that long without getting fed up. Personally, I have picketed, work IAW, and don’t do anything extra. I just do my job. Other than that, as a union the RLA has our hands tied. So, to answer your question I have no choice but to wait on a TA and see what it looks like.
I see finger pointing here at SWA and their seemingly stalled negotiations. That could very easily be us.

Our situation now since I actually understand it, since I am not in Dallas. Is money is not the issue, our scope is. AMFA knows when they bring a T/A out, and it will be almost 6 years, is even if they don't strongly recommend it. It will probably pass, just like in 2009. Nor do I think they will go anywhere if it does. In American situation it could be that long but I doubt it. I also think you guys will eventually get rid of the IAM and just be the TWU again, especially if the IAM doesn't help you get a contract.

 

[AA89]

# 2 So far MetalMover seems to be the only one who got where I was going in my conversation on overseas vendors. Others like yourself may be a little bit more Cult-ured (Rah Rah Company) than you knew. When I become a Corporate Executive then I’ll start waving my Pom Poms.

Sounds like you think some of us are on the company’s side on outsourcing? If your position is that AA should keep all work in house, no one should disagree. We probably all also agree that that will never happen.
So we farm out 35% of overhaul to wherever management decides. Nothing we can do about that right now. I’m only saying as topDawg said that work done by AA employees, no matter what country, is going to be better than work done by a 3rd party MRO. I would say even a 3rd party MRO in the States.

 

[WeAAsles]

Our situation now since I actually understand it, since I am not in Dallas. Is money is not the issue, our scope is. AMFA knows when they bring a T/A out, and it will be almost 6 years, is even if they don't strongly recommend it. It will probably pass, just like in 2009. Nor do I think they will go anywhere if it does. In American situation it could be that long but I doubt it. I also think you guys will eventually get rid of the IAM and just be the TWU again, especially if the IAM doesn't help you get a contract.

So if I get this straight what you are saying is that your Leadership knows even if they don’t like a deal given from the Company if they send it out it will pass? So does that mean in reality they are holding the will of the Membership hostage by not releasing?

Also I recall you saying that the results of that poll would not be released publicly?

So let me ask you this. If your Leadership knows and has told you that whatever they put out to the Membership it would pass, does that mean that maybe the “REAL” results of that poll is the Membership wants to accept the deal from SWA Management?

 

[AA89]

I foresee a blended scope, I see the 50% of billable hours of heavy being reduced, (the only reason we got stuck with that was because of the merger as HP outsourced all of heavy except they did do some C-Checks in PHX and our CBA being abrogated).

I also see some kind of component formula for outsourcing as we lost all of that work in the second bankruptcy, as LUS farms out all components, and LAA doesnt.

And I see the LUS scope in regard to line, which is it cant be farmed out.

I agree with you that SCOPE will be somewhere between LAA and LUS. That’s where the job loss will come from. (Or job movement in companyspeak)
Who does the line work overseas for LUS? Is it not outsourced?

 

[WeAAsles]

Sounds like you think some of us are on the company’s side on outsourcing? If your position is that AA should keep all work in house, no one should disagree. We probably all also agree that that will never happen.
So we farm out 35% of overhaul to wherever management decides. Nothing we can do about that right now. I’m only saying as topDawg said that work done by AA employees, no matter what country, is going to be better than work done by a 3rd party MRO. I would say even a 3rd party MRO in the States.

I’ve NEVER disagreed with work needing to be done outside the US (Of course it does) or that it’s not better to keep that work as much or close to in-house as possible even if we began flying to Mars and hired Martians to wear an AA Ballcap.

All I’ve ever said is I don’t care how AA wants to label those Martians when they “claim” all they’re doing is building those nice little Martians a roof to keep out the Solar Radiation.

Meaning if I’m concerned about AA shipping out jobs they don’t “need” to ship out, I don’t care how they label that lost United States Of America Union Job.