AFA Yes DOH NO!

[cooper43]

DAL policy is company seniority, but AFA lets us decide what we want in our contract. What is important to us.
The DOH issue is in the AFA constitution not each individual airlines contract.

yeah and do you think that the DAL and NWA non company transfers will vote on a contract allowing you to go by company DOH? I doubt it, DAL is one of the only if not the only airline that allowed company transfers to use their company DOH when furloughing. And as far as being done talking about DOH that is fine. It is odd how this is a venue for discussing ideas and thoughts and now anyone that doesnt agree with the majority is shut out. Very sad indeed. I dont think I am the closed minded one here.

 

[bagboy]

yeah and do you think that the DAL and NWA non company transfers will vote on a contract allowing you to go by company DOH? I doubt it, DAL is one of the only if not the only airline that allowed company transfers to use their company DOH when furloughing. And as far as being done talking about DOH that is fine. It is odd how this is a venue for discussing ideas and thoughts and now anyone that doesnt agree with the majority is shut out. Very sad indeed. I dont think I am the closed minded one here.

You may be in the minority though.

 

[BABABOOY]

You may be in the minority though.

For inflight we will know May 28th who is in the minority

 

[Yankeestu]

You may be in the minority though.

Hey Coop!

I know your point of view about DOH so enough said. If DAL fa's want company transfers to keep their company seniority intact to whatever degree we can and will have it in our contract, it depends on what we decide is relavant. NW fa's believe in a democracy just like most union supporters and you either vote for a contract or not. However, in a furlough situation we are only protected to a certain degree. Regardless of actual company seniority, furlough is based on the 1991, it was something they decided after the PAN AM fa's were hired.

 

[Kev3188]

It is odd how this is a venue for discussing ideas and thoughts and now anyone that doesnt agree with the majority is shut out. Very sad indeed. I dont think I am the closed minded one here.

You know what? Luke was right; you do have a victim mentality. Frankly, your constant posting of the same idea is way past it's "sell by" date.

Is this a discussion board? Of course! The problem is that you keep rehashing the same self-serving rationale against DOH, and people keep rebutting it with logic and fact. Your latest string of posts hit a ridiculous new low when you tried to tie your "blending" idea in with the hiring cycles of various carriers.

Then, when you see that there is no one that agrees with what you wrote, you decide that everyone's out to get you.

You need to steel your reslove and realize that posting on here means accepting that not everyone will swallow whole what you post. Expect there to be some rebuttals.

I for one would at least respect your dissenting viewpoint (even though I disagree with it) if it was backed up with something of substance, but it's not. Your wafer thin "hiring cycle" crap, is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize your self-serving motives, and instantly causes loss of credibility.

Next time, just save the board's bandwidth, and come out with your true motives; it'd save a lot of time.

Perhaps you'd prefer this place to become an echo chamber, where every posts parrots what you write?


Discuss.

 

[Yankeestu]

You know what? Luke was right; you do have a victim mentality. Frankly, your constant posting of the same idea is way past it's "sell by" date.

Is this a discussion board? Of course! The problem is that you keep rehashing the same self-serving rationale against DOH, and people keep rebutting it with logic and fact. Your latest string of posts hit a ridiculous new low when you tried to tie your "blending" idea in with the hiring cycles of various carriers.

Then, when you see that there is no one that agrees with what you wrote, you decide that everyone's out to get you.

Perhaps you'd prefer this place to become an echo chamber, where every posts parrots what you write?


Discuss.

I just feel like we keep saying the same thing over and over again regarding DOH. Coop thinks the sky is black....okay already....it is black.

It is like trying to throw money into a locked safe, after a while, you give up.

 

[1Conehead]

You know what? Luke was right; you do have a victim mentality. Frankly, your constant posting of the same idea is way past it's "sell by" date.

Is this a discussion board? Of course! The problem is that you keep rehashing the same self-serving rationale against DOH, and people keep rebutting it with logic and fact. Your latest string of posts hit a ridiculous new low when you tried to tie your "blending" idea in with the hiring cycles of various carriers.

Then, when you see that there is no one that agrees with what you wrote, you decide that everyone's out to get you.

You need to steel your reslove and realize that posting on here means accepting that not everyone will swallow whole what you post. Expect there to be some rebuttals.

I for one would at least respect your dissenting viewpoint (even though I disagree with it) if it was backed up with something of substance, but it's not. Your wafer thin "hiring cycle" crap, is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize your self-serving motives, and instantly causes loss of credibility.

Next time, just save the board's bandwidth, and come out with your true motives; it'd save a lot of time.

Perhaps you'd prefer this place to become an echo chamber, where every posts parrots what you write?


Discuss.

Ican't belive I'm actualy siding with Kev.
BRRRR my feet are getting cold

 

[cooper43]

You know what? Luke was right; you do have a victim mentality. Frankly, your constant posting of the same idea is way past it's "sell by" date.

Is this a discussion board? Of course! The problem is that you keep rehashing the same self-serving rationale against DOH, and people keep rebutting it with logic and fact. Your latest string of posts hit a ridiculous new low when you tried to tie your "blending" idea in with the hiring cycles of various carriers.

Then, when you see that there is no one that agrees with what you wrote, you decide that everyone's out to get you.

You need to steel your reslove and realize that posting on here means accepting that not everyone will swallow whole what you post. Expect there to be some rebuttals.

I for one would at least respect your dissenting viewpoint (even though I disagree with it) if it was backed up with something of substance, but it's not. Your wafer thin "hiring cycle" crap, is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to rationalize your self-serving motives, and instantly causes loss of credibility.

Next time, just save the board's bandwidth, and come out with your true motives; it'd save a lot of time.

Perhaps you'd prefer this place to become an echo chamber, where every posts parrots what you write?


Discuss.

It is obvious that I have an opinion seeing that I am the one who started this thread. And I dont believe I or anyone has made you read or respond to anything I have written. Also, as far as quote "MY" blending or dovetailing ideas, these methods have been used more often than DOH has in referrence to inflight. I didnt just pull this idea out of my a**. Oh yeah you stated that I keep rehashing the same ideas over and over, well read the title to the thread. And as far as I can see you have not stated any facts about why DOH is more fair that using other historically fair methods. The only defense I have heard so far on DOH is that "we are all one company now (which we are not yet) , time served is time served". In my humble opinion that is a very simple minded way to handle the issue and one that does not take into account things like ratios, size of labor groups, what each brings to the table as far as % of desirable routes (meaning positions that we can bid on not what is already outsourced by foreign nationals fly). I think it is fair that we all should expect to move down in our seniority but no one seniority group should shoulder more pain than any other. We should all be able to hold what we currently hold within reason. I dont know how much clearer I can be and I dont know why some think that it is like unpatriotic not to automatically except DOH without question. Who is trying to get who to drink the Koolaide? I think for myself not what others tell me to think and that includes Delta and AFA.

 

[1Conehead]

We should all be able to hold what we currently hold

Unless someone has true ( see definition on another post, or ask webster) seniority.

 

[Kev3188]

It is obvious that I have an opinion seeing that I am the one who started this thread.

Obviously.

And I dont believe I or anyone has made you read or respond to anything I have written.

Nope, you haven't. But you could at least change it up once in awhile.

lso, as far as quote "MY" blending or dovetailing ideas, these methods have been used more often than DOH has in referrence to inflight. I didnt just pull this idea out of my a**.

Ask the pilots that came over from Republic how well that sat with them.

Oh yeah you stated that I keep rehashing the same ideas over and over, well read the title to the thread.

I read the title. The problem is you keep repeating the same BS to anyone that rebuts your posts.

And as far as I can see you have not stated any facts about why DOH is more fair that using other historically fair methods.

It is the *only* equitable way. period. Yes, time served is time served (and I'm aware of the irony in repeating that, so no need to point it out).

If person A has 2000, and person B has 2001, person A is senior. End of story. Wether or not they happened to hire on in a big spree is irrelevant to this discussion. Each employee chose to seek work at their respective carrier.

Here's one for you: I started at one of the smallest/most senior (at the the time) cities in NW's system. It took me 18 mos. to finally get on. Should I have those 18 months added to my seniority?

The only defense I have heard so far on DOH is that "we are all one company now (which we are not yet)

Not from this cat. I usually preface everything with "if this comes to pass" or something similar.

In my humble opinion that is a very simple minded way to handle the issue and one that does not take into account things like ratios, size of labor groups, what each brings to the table as far as % of desirable routes (meaning positions that we can bid on not what is already outsourced by foreign nationals fly).

It's beautiful in it's simplicity. It evens everything out regardless of who came from where. And while we're at it, do you really think overnight you're going to get stuck doing CID layovers (or whatever the DL equivalent is)?

I think it is fair that we all should expect to move down in our seniority but no one seniority group should shoulder more pain than any other. We should all be able to hold what we currently hold within reason.

Exactly! What do you think DOH is going to do? No one loses a single day that they didn't already have.

As for F/A specifics, see my above comment. It is highly alarmist to think there will be a mass exodus out of MSP for ATL or JFK (or vice versa).

I dont know how much clearer I can be and I dont know why some think that it is like unpatriotic not to automatically except DOH without question.

Unpatriotic? Been watching Fox news, have we? No, it's not unpatriotic, but your plan is self serving. Don't try and claim it's anything else (or wrap it in a flag).

I'm not sure how much clearer *I* can be.

Who is trying to get who to drink the Koolaide? I think for myself not what others tell me to think and that includes Delta and AFA.

Good for you, peaches. However, part of being able to think for yourself means listening to ideas/information that may be foreign to you in order to make an educated decision.

 

[Kev3188]

It is obvious that I have an opinion seeing that I am the one who started this thread.

Obviously.

And I dont believe I or anyone has made you read or respond to anything I have written.

Nope, you haven't. But you could at least change it up once in awhile.

lso, as far as quote "MY" blending or dovetailing ideas, these methods have been used more often than DOH has in referrence to inflight. I didnt just pull this idea out of my a**.

Ask the pilots that came over from Republic how well that sat with them.

Oh yeah you stated that I keep rehashing the same ideas over and over, well read the title to the thread.

I read the title. The problem is you keep repeating the same BS to anyone that rebuts your posts.

And as far as I can see you have not stated any facts about why DOH is more fair that using other historically fair methods.

It is the *only* equitable way. period. Yes, time served is time served (and I'm aware of the irony in repeating that, so no need to point it out).

If person A has 2000, and person B has 2001, person A is senior. End of story. Wether or not they happened to hire on in a big spree is irrelevant to this discussion. Each employee chose to seek work at their respective carrier.

Here's one for you: I started at one of the smallest/most senior (at the the time) cities in NW's system. It took me 18 mos. to finally get on. Should I have those 18 months added to my seniority?

The only defense I have heard so far on DOH is that "we are all one company now (which we are not yet)

Not from this cat. I usually preface everything with "if this comes to pass" or something similar.

In my humble opinion that is a very simple minded way to handle the issue and one that does not take into account things like ratios, size of labor groups, what each brings to the table as far as % of desirable routes (meaning positions that we can bid on not what is already outsourced by foreign nationals fly).

It's beautiful in it's simplicity. It evens everything out regardless of who came from where. And while we're at it, do you really think overnight you're going to get stuck doing CID layovers (or whatever the DL equivalent is)?

I think it is fair that we all should expect to move down in our seniority but no one seniority group should shoulder more pain than any other. We should all be able to hold what we currently hold within reason.

Exactly! What do you think DOH is going to do? No one loses a single day that they didn't already have.

As for F/A specifics, see my above comment. It is highly alarmist to think there will be a mass exodus out of MSP for ATL or JFK (or vice versa).

Maybe you'd like to see some fencing of bases to protect what you hold so dear? Well, guess what? That will only come from an AFA negotiation.

I dont know how much clearer I can be and I dont know why some think that it is like unpatriotic not to automatically except DOH without question.

Unpatriotic? Been watching Fox news, have we? No, it's not unpatriotic, but your plan is self serving. Don't try and claim it's anything else (or wrap it in a flag).

I'm not sure how much clearer *I* can be.

Who is trying to get who to drink the Koolaide? I think for myself not what others tell me to think and that includes Delta and AFA.

Good for you, peaches. However, part of being able to think for yourself means broadening your horizons by listening to ideas/information that may be foreign to you in order to make an educated decision.

 

[Yankeestu]

It is obvious that I have an opinion seeing that I am the one who started this thread. And I dont believe I or anyone has made you read or respond to anything I have written. Also, as far as quote "MY" blending or dovetailing ideas, these methods have been used more often than DOH has in referrence to inflight. I didnt just pull this idea out of my a**. Oh yeah you stated that I keep rehashing the same ideas over and over, well read the title to the thread. And as far as I can see you have not stated any facts about why DOH is more fair that using other historically fair methods. The only defense I have heard so far on DOH is that "we are all one company now (which we are not yet) , time served is time served". In my humble opinion that is a very simple minded way to handle the issue and one that does not take into account things like ratios, size of labor groups, what each brings to the table as far as % of desirable routes (meaning positions that we can bid on not what is already outsourced by foreign nationals fly). I think it is fair that we all should expect to move down in our seniority but no one seniority group should shoulder more pain than any other. We should all be able to hold what we currently hold within reason. I dont know how much clearer I can be and I dont know why some think that it is like unpatriotic not to automatically except DOH without question. Who is trying to get who to drink the Koolaide? I think for myself not what others tell me to think and that includes Delta and AFA.

I have concluded that you are a plant...either management or union buster.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I have concluded that you are a plant...either management or union buster.

I kind of see what you mean, Yank.
I've been on this board for a few months now and ever since the AFA vote was called, it has drawn more and more FAs. The ones who are decisive in their opinions of the union, either pro or con, are ,I believe, for real.
It's these posters who say "well, I haven't decided" or "I'm all for a union, just not AFA" or "I'm for AFA, just not their DOH policy"...these are the ones that have the most possibility of being mgt or plants. Probably because they want fencesitters to relate to them. This way they can ease them off the fence and onto the anti-union side. I think Cooper and Bababooy are a perfect example. I admit, I was suckererd into trying to appeal to both their senses and wasted a lot of time. When all the while, they were just playing me.
The best thing is to not engage them (unless it's something so blatanly false and transparent you can't help yourself!)

 

[700UW]

Dovetailing is DOH.

 

[JAMAKE1]

with oil at $120/barrel and competition w/ foreign carrier which are gov't subsidized under the new Open Skies Agreement. Delta will use these as excuses to do the "unthinkable" "in order to survive."

Other than Alitalia, tell me which foreign carriers are government subsidized? I believe those days are long gone...

I completely agree, the only people advocating DOH is NW and that is becuase it will benefit them more. I just want a chance to negotiate and find the best way for everyone so that all share evenly in the pain. I am willing to except my share of pain but DOH would shift the pain to only a few groups. Also BLACKDOG: NW and REPUBLIC is not a good example becuase I beleive I have read on other threads that people are still fighting over that merger. I still say that DOH has really not been successful anywhere and has rarely been used for inflight.

Cooper: I don't think you have your facts straight. First of all, DOH came about in AFA's Bylaws because of precedent that was set during the Allegheny-Mohawk merger back in 1972. Since that time, DOH has been considered the most equitable means for seniority integration. It was used during the PSA/USAir merger back in 1988 and then again in the USAir/Piedmont merger in 1989.

If I am not mistaken, when Delta acquired Western Airlines in 1987, Western employees were integrated at DOH. Ditto for those who came from the Pan Am European route acquisition in 1991.

Furthermore, you are failing to consider the vast amount of flying that will be inherited in the DL-NWA merger. Delta will inherit a vast Asian network as well as significant operations in the Upper Midwestern U.S., and a strong base of operations in Amsterdam. You have to consider the significant operations that are being inherited and not just the number of flight attendants or other NWA employees as a result of this merger.

Generally speaking, most employees are settled near where they are domiciled. It is not like there is going to be a sudden rush of NWA F/A's who call Minneapolis home, rushing to get their transfers in to JFK. It usually balances out. Having said that, I would venture to guess that despite what was said at the press conference announcing this deal, there will be a significant pull down in operations. I think it is a safe bet that CVG and MEM will be closed at some point going forward after the merger is concluded and there may likely be furloughs. And it will be through both attrition and then by the junior most employees on the combined system seniority lists.

As for the NWA-Republic issue, that is related to the pilots, not the flight attendants. ALPA has a very complex way of integrating seniority because they take into account a whole slew of factors such as earnings expectations, equipment type, time needed to upgrade, etc.

I think it would help to look at the broader picture. It is not just about the merging of seniority lists, but also looking at all the additional new flying that comes with it...