AFA Yes DOH NO!

[cooper43]

Why confine yourself to Strict letter of the law as the AFA states.
When I am looking at around 5,000 of the 8,000 NW F/A's coming above me. Why
not ask for RELATIVE seniority as our pilots are asking? What is NW's ratio of intl to domestic?
not counting what their Foriegn nationals fly. IF its good enough for our pilots its good enough
for the F/A's. I say lets negotiate and bulid fences if you have to.

I completely agree, the only people advocating DOH is NW and that is becuase it will benefit them more. I just want a chance to negotiate and find the best way for everyone so that all share evenly in the pain. I am willing to except my share of pain but DOH would shift the pain to only a few groups. Also BLACKDOG: NW and REPUBLIC is not a good example becuase I beleive I have read on other threads that people are still fighting over that merger. I still say that DOH has really not been successful anywhere and has rarely been used for inflight.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Bababooy:

The ironic thing about your request to "build fences" is that the only way that is guaranteed to happen is if you vote YES for AFA representation. You see -- if you join AFA, our "NWA" contract stays alive and Delta management is required to honor it. Our contract has an iron-clad requirement that a fence agreement be in place until we negotiate a combined contract.

If you vote NO to AFA and we end up losing our contract, then management can (and most likely will) force us together without any safeguards. This is the divide and conquer technique that NWA is famous for. Just this past week, NWA and DAL leaders met to discuss strategies that are specifically intended to pit both DAL and NWA FAs against each other. Forcing us together with no fence agreement is the fastest and easiest way to accomplish this.

Also, when you and Cooper talk about any other means of seniority integration (besides DOH), you must recognize that Delta FAs are on the loosing side of those arguments -- because you are the more senior group. Whether ratio ranking or a 'relative' placement process, it will be the NWA FAs that stand to get BETTER THAN D.O.H under those formulas. This really isn't rocket science -- just look at the comparison; http://www.deltaafa.org/aefiles/NWADALSeniority.pdf

Keep in mind, we have ANOTHER 450 leaving under our current Early Out program. I'm not sure why this is so hard for some people to understand - unless they just can't imagine (or don't understand) how an arbitration will play out. In order for Delta FAs to DO BETTER than DOH, you have to have some compelling argument. But, you don't have one for a ratio-ranking or a 'relative' placement (both arguments work in OUR favor). Help me out here -- where are you and Cooper coming from ?

 

[bagboy]

Well I see you are trying to bring this to a childish conversation, but I prefer to stick to the issue. The people who are for DOH are probably those who think that they will benefit from that way of doing things. As I said before DOH is too simplistic to deal with f/a's and Pilots seniority issues. How many mergers in the history of airline mergers have used this process? America West and Us Air is the most recent attempt and that has not worked out so well, as they are still fighting that out. Blending may hurt everyone just a little but it would not hurt any one group a lot. Can you think of any other mergers of two large airlines where they have used strictly DOH? I am asking because I don't know and would like to know if it has happened and how successful it has been.

coop. This hasn't been much of a discussion. We have you on one side repeating over and over that it's not fair. Sounds a lot like my four year old(And your pilots). And us on the other letting you know that we will not roll over on this. You propose to screw everyone a little with your self serving blending idea while DOH gives the employees that have put in the time and deserve their spot on the seniority list, where it belongs.

 

[cooper43]

coop. This hasn't been much of a discussion. We have you on one side repeating over and over that it's not fair. Sounds a lot like my four year old(And your pilots). And us on the other letting you know that we will not roll over on this. You propose to screw everyone a little with your self serving blending idea while DOH gives the employees that have put in the time and deserve their spot on the seniority list, where it belongs.

Bagboy, I guess I do sound like a broken record and maybe we will just have to agree to disagree, I mean no harm but I really think you are missing my point. I it is a very passionate issue for everyone concerned. Also can I ask, ... are you a f/a? and do you work for DAL or NWA?

 

[bagboy]

Bagboy, I guess I do sound like a broken record and maybe we will just have to agree to disagree, I mean no harm but I really think you are missing my point. I it is a very passionate issue for everyone concerned. Also can I ask, ... are you a f/a? and do you work for DAL or NWA?

The new Delta ramp brother.

 

[cooper43]

The new Delta ramp brother.

I dont think I am being self serving and this is a conversation about DOH concerning AFA. I would not have an opinion about rampers merger policy because it is a totally different job and I wouldnt understand what is important to you. So how do you know the life of a f/a? We are away from home a lot and senority decides our pay and how much time we have to be away from home. those with higher senority make more and fly better trips worth more hrs. So dont judge me about my opinions of DOH when you are not a f/a. DOH may be what you want but this is about voteing in AFA and thier merger p olicy.

 

[bagboy]

I don't think I am being self serving and this is a conversation about DOH concerning AFA. I would not have an opinion about rampers merger policy because it is a totally different job and I wouldn't understand what is important to you. So how do you know the life of a f/a? We are away from home a lot and seniority decides our pay and how much time we have to be away from home. those with higher seniority make more and fly better trips worth more hrs. So don't judge me about my opinions of DOH when you are not a f/a. DOH may be what you want but this is about voting in AFA and their merger p olicy.

I first want to thank you for making my point about DOH in your last post. The fact that seniority decides your pay rate and the trips you bid on strengthens the resolve of most believers in DOH. With your blending proposal you would be "steeling" pay from senior employees and "steeling" time from the senior employees, that they have earned rightfully. Please take a minute to think about it.
As to the first part, our jobs do differ some, but are more alike than you think. We bid our shifts/day off patterns, based on seniority. Some shifts come with more opportunities for overtime. I bid vacation on my seniority. I bid on daily job duties by seniority. You spend time away from home in 3 to 6 day intervals while I work away from home 6-7 days a week, going two or three weeks strait with out a day off. I do this by choice to make money as this is what we are all here for.
I personally have had to leave my family to go out and earn my seniority dates(four months at a time). I had to start part time and move to a different town to work full time to achieve them. I have seen ramp employees work away from home for years, not days, after being displaced by a more senior employee. This is what seniority gives you. Know one will take my time away. This is not a unique way of thinking about this.

 

[Yankeestu]

I first want to thank you for making my point about DOH in your last post. The fact that seniority decides your pay rate and the trips you bid on stengthens the resolve of most believers in DOH. With your blending proposal you whould be "steeling" pay from senior employees and "steeling" time from the senior employees, that they have earned rightfully. Please take a minute to think about it.
As to the first part, our jobs do differ some, but are more alike than you think. I personally have had to leave my family to go out and earn my seniority dates. I had to start part time and move to a different town to work full time. I have seen ramp employees work away from home for years, not days, after being displaced by a more senior employee. This is what seniority gives you. Knowone will take my time away. This is not a unique way of thinking about this.

Absolutely Bagboy! I have transfered three times to different occupations within DAL to stay employeed and become full time. Then when I came to inflight I lost my company seniority for bidding and half for pay.

I think Cooper should be fighting for me to have my company seniority given back to me. That would get the shite hitting the fan.

 

[cooper43]

Absolutely Bagboy! I have transfered three times to different occupations within DAL to stay employeed and become full time. Then when I came to inflight I lost my company seniority for bidding and half for pay.

I think Cooper should be fighting for me to have my company seniority given back to me. That would get the shite hitting the fan.

so you agree with giving up more of your seniority to f/a's from NWA because NWA hired a bunch of people a year before you? Wouldnt you rather be sequenced in instead. I really dont think you reallize how far down you potentially could fall. With relative seniority no one would fall way down but with DOH you could fall way down. And if you are a company transfer what will AFA do with that? Delta supports you not being furloughed by DOH not inflight DOH, while I think NWA f/a's loose thier company time when transfering into inflight not 100% sure if somone who knows can comment.

 

[1Conehead]

so you agree with giving up more of your seniority to f/a's from NWA because NWA hired a bunch of people a year before you? Wouldnt you rather be sequenced in instead. I really dont think you reallize how far down you potentially could fall. With relative seniority no one would fall way down but with DOH you could fall way down. And if you are a company transfer what will AFA do with that? Delta supports you not being furloughed by DOH not inflight DOH, while I think NWA f/a's loose thier company time when transfering into inflight not 100% sure if somone who knows can comment.

Only under your way of thinking would someone lose seniority.
Sequency does not equal seniority.
seniority




Main Entry: se·nior·i·ty
Pronunciation: \sēn-ˈyȯr-ə-tē, -ˈyär-\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : the quality or state of being senior : priority
2 : a privileged status attained by length of continuous service (as in a company)

When 2 companies become ONE.
Time served is time served,sorry to sound like a broken record.

 

[Yankeestu]

so you agree with giving up more of your seniority to f/a's from NWA because NWA hired a bunch of people a year before you? Wouldnt you rather be sequenced in instead. I really dont think you reallize how far down you potentially could fall. With relative seniority no one would fall way down but with DOH you could fall way down. And if you are a company transfer what will AFA do with that? Delta supports you not being furloughed by DOH not inflight DOH, while I think NWA f/a's loose thier company time when transfering into inflight not 100% sure if somone who knows can comment.

That is the difference between you and me COOP.....I did my research and I know exactly where I would fall.
I know with a contract they wont be able to out source my job, and without, you will be in the welfare line.

DOH, I am not even willing to discuss it with you any further. I find your narrow scope ridiculous.

 

[Kev3188]

I dont think I am being self serving and this is a conversation about DOH concerning AFA.

Oh yes you are, sister.

But hey, as long as you get yours, right? :down:

So how do you know the life of a f/a? We are away from home a lot and senority decides our pay and how much time we have to be away from home. those with higher senority make more and fly better trips worth more hrs.

You knew that was how it was going to be when you hired on.

You don't think that *everyone* from AMT's to dispatch to ACS aren't subject to the same? Everyone bids by seniority; please tell me you already knew that...

 

[BABABOOY]

Absolutely Bagboy! I have transfered three times to different occupations within DAL to stay employeed and become full time. Then when I came to inflight I lost my company seniority for bidding and half for pay.

I think Cooper should be fighting for me to have my company seniority given back to me. That would get the shite hitting the fan.

Yankee, with Delta, in the event of a furlough what is your date of hire?
date of employement.
With the AFA what would it be?
Inflight DOH.

 

[Yankeestu]

Yankee, with Delta, in the event of a furlough what is your date of hire?
date of employement.
With the AFA what would it be?
Inflight DOH.

DAL policy is company seniority, but AFA lets us decide what we want in our contract. What is important to us.
The DOH issue is in the AFA constitution not each individual airlines contract.

 

[bagboy]

so you agree with giving up more of your seniority to f/a's from NWA because NWA hired a bunch of people a year before you? Wouldnt you rather be sequenced in instead. I really dont think you reallize how far down you potentially could fall. With relative seniority no one would fall way down but with DOH you could fall way down. And if you are a company transfer what will AFA do with that? Delta supports you not being furloughed by DOH not inflight DOH, while I think NWA f/a's loose thier company time when transfering into inflight not 100% sure if somone who knows can comment.

Since my man has kool-iad rot of the brain can some please answer this question.
If employee A were hired by Acme Airlines in Jan of 1998 and employee B were hired in Jan of 1999, who has more seniority, employee A or B? Second part to the question, Who should get the axe first if lay offs were to ever happen? Coop, even Southwind can get this one.