AFA Yes DOH NO!

[Yankeestu]

I kind of see what you mean, Yank.
I've been on this board for a few months now and ever since the AFA vote was called, it has drawn more and more FAs. The ones who are decisive in their opinions of the union, either pro or con, are ,I believe, for real.
It's these posters who say "well, I haven't decided" or "I'm all for a union, just not AFA" or "I'm for AFA, just not their DOH policy"...these are the ones that have the most possibility of being mgt or plants. Probably because they want fencesitters to relate to them. This way they can ease them off the fence and onto the anti-union side. I think Cooper and Bababooy are a perfect example. I admit, I was suckererd into trying to appeal to both their senses and wasted a lot of time. When all the while, they were just playing me.
The best thing is to not engage them (unless it's something so blatanly false and transparent you can't help yourself!)

Luke,

It just seems no matter what you say they regurgitate the exact same responses our management seem to be spewing. Not once have they had anything to say disparaging. I love my spouse but I can still acknowledge the flaws that exist in our relationship, but have the incentive to keep trying to strengthen our relationship every day.
No relationship is perfect. Not with your family, friends, lovers, employer.

I could be wrong, but am guessing that I am not.

 

[BABABOOY]

I kind of see what you mean, Yank.
I've been on this board for a few months now and ever since the AFA vote was called, it has drawn more and more FAs. The ones who are decisive in their opinions of the union, either pro or con, are ,I believe, for real.
It's these posters who say "well, I haven't decided" or "I'm all for a union, just not AFA" or "I'm for AFA, just not their DOH policy"...these are the ones that have the most possibility of being mgt or plants. Probably because they want fencesitters to relate to them. This way they can ease them off the fence and onto the anti-union side. I think Cooper and Bababooy are a perfect example. I admit, I was suckererd into trying to appeal to both their senses and wasted a lot of time. When all the while, they were just playing me.
The best thing is to not engage them (unless it's something so blatanly false and transparent you can't help yourself!)

Ok Luke, I'll bite. Get over yourself already. I think some of you are having a bad day at the AFA call center.
You just can't understand or you don't want to understand that
there are many F/A's out there who just don't feel the same "luvvy duvvy, AFA will SAVE US ALL" attitude. and yes ATTITUDE. While this board did offer a lot of useful information it also provided examples of the worse of what a Union is all about. The mean spirited attitude of many Unions Supporters. There are many examples on these boards. The best is that Union supporters feel that all non supporters are just stupid and ignorant. WTG
The reason that you like to attack or simply call someone a plant is NOT because you are frustrated with them, its because you must be frustrated with yourself. Because you FAILED. You failed to have some believe what you believe. I have said it before, I believe the lesser of two evils is Delta. You believe its AFA. We will all know what the majority of F/A's think May 28. Now you got your panties in a bunch when I said you had 30 years and not CLOSE to 30 years. I know you don't want someone to "figure out" who you are. However you don't want to understand that a F/A's history means a lot on how they vote. Were those Delta Years? Pan Am? Western?
I know you wont answer. That's ok. Its just the HISTORY of the way Delta has treated the F/A group far out ways in favor of the F/A. History has shown that. During past Mergers/acquisitions. Delta has protected the DELTA F/A group. If I were a plant I would have copied and pasted a lot of what management has said, however quite frankly I don't believe everything they tell us. Just like I don't believe the Union can save the day at Delta and believe everything they say. However I will stick with Delta because they are the evil that I know. I feel the Union will be a Trojan horse that we will all regret. JMHO.

 

[Baja4U]

So you beleive that DOH is always fair no matter what. Say company A hired a lot of people when times were good say hypothetically 10 years ago and company B has been hiring a few people all along being more responsible (not the boom and bust style), people at A are more senior becuase their airline is older. A lot of employees were hired at once years ago but no hiring since. Company B would be at a disadvantage because thier f/a's were hired at a more staggared pace. So in this situation only DOH matters ? No two mergers are ever the same, you have to take each with its unique circumstances into account. That is why DOH is not always the most fair. Ask America West, they saved US air and now they face going to the bottom because of DOH. Also DAL pilots didnt think DOH was fair for them so why is it fair for the f/a's?

America West sayed Usairways my A##!!! They purchased US with US's $$ !! DOH is the most fair way to merge the two, unless you are most junior, therefore you should not have a leg to stand on anyway!!!!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Other than Alitalia, tell me which foreign carriers are government subsidized? I believe those days are long gone...

Hi Jamake--I should have been more specific. I meant to say that some foreign carriers have partial gov't subsidides. I was under that impression just by the little I've read and from (gasp!) a conversation I had w/ one of our pilots.

Cooper: I don't think you have your facts straight. First of all, DOH came about in AFA's Bylaws because of precedent that was set during the Allegheny-Mohawk merger back in 1972. Since that time, DOH has been considered the most equitable means for seniority integration. It was used during the PSA/USAir merger back in 1988 and then again in the USAir/Piedmont merger in 1989.

If I am not mistaken, when Delta acquired Western Airlines in 1987, Western employees were integrated at DOH. Ditto for those who came from the Pan Am European route acquisition in 1991.

Furthermore, you are failing to consider the vast amount of flying that will be inherited in the DL-NWA merger. Delta will inherit a vast Asian network as well as significant operations in the Upper Midwestern U.S., and a strong base of operations in Amsterdam. You have to consider the significant operations that are being inherited and not just the number of flight attendants or other NWA employees as a result of this merger.

Generally speaking, most employees are settled near where they are domiciled. It is not like there is going to be a sudden rush of NWA F/A's who call Minneapolis home, rushing to get their transfers in to JFK. It usually balances out. Having said that, I would venture to guess that despite what was said at the press conference announcing this deal, there will be a significant pull down in operations. I think it is a safe bet that CVG and MEM will be closed at some point going forward after the merger is concluded and there may likely be furloughs. And it will be through both attrition and then by the junior most employees on the combined system seniority lists.

As for the NWA-Republic issue, that is related to the pilots, not the flight attendants. ALPA has a very complex way of integrating seniority because they take into account a whole slew of factors such as earnings expectations, equipment type, time needed to upgrade, etc.

I think it would help to look at the broader picture. It is not just about the merging of seniority lists, but also looking at all the additional new flying that comes with it...

I agree w/ everything above and have tried to point some of those things out but to no avail. I wouldn't bet the farm that she is going to see your point.

 

[cooper43]

I have concluded that you are a plant...either management or union buster.

Wrong

 

[cooper43]

Other than Alitalia, tell me which foreign carriers are government subsidized? I believe those days are long gone...



Generally speaking, most employees are settled near where they are domiciled. It is not like there is going to be a sudden rush of NWA F/A's who call Minneapolis home, rushing to get their transfers in to JFK.

Over 75% of DAL's nyc base are commuters, ATL also has become about 50% commuters since base closings and all the international growth.

I think it would help to look at the broader picture. It is not just about the merging of seniority lists, but also looking at all the additional new flying that comes with it...

I am looking at the long term picture not the instant gratification. DAL brings more new flying to the table than NWA because NWA f/a's dont fly all of thier asia routes. DAL flies everything we have. And earlier you mention that pilots merge differently and one of the things they look at is income expectations. That is what I am talking about. My earning expectations will be greatly deminished with 7000 f/a's coming in above me at this point in my career. I may be relatively junior at DAL but I have a hope to move up in seniority at our present growth rate. Now you may say that is self serving but I am not asking to staple any one to the bottom. But when merging two airlines together that are of differnent size there needs to be a blending of seniorities. DOH will result in huge chunks of f/a's of either airline to drop way down. Also I dont think the DAL and WESTERN merger was straight date of hire, I think there were some at the top protected.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Ok Luke, I'll bite. Get over yourself already. I think some of you are having a bad day at the AFA call center.
You just can't understand or you don't want to understand that
there are many F/A's out there who just don't feel the same "luvvy duvvy, AFA will SAVE US ALL" attitude. and yes ATTITUDE. While this board did offer a lot of useful information it also provided examples of the worse of what a Union is all about. The mean spirited attitude of many Unions Supporters. There are many examples on these boards. The best is that Union supporters feel that all non supporters are just stupid and ignorant. WTG
The reason that you like to attack or simply call someone a plant is NOT because you are frustrated with them, its because you must be frustrated with yourself. Because you FAILED. You failed to have some believe what you believe. I have said it before, I believe the lesser of two evils is Delta. You believe its AFA. We will all know what the majority of F/A's think May 28. Now you got your panties in a bunch when I said you had 30 years and not CLOSE to 30 years. I know you don't want someone to "figure out" who you are. However you don't want to understand that a F/A's history means a lot on how they vote. Were those Delta Years? Pan Am? Western?
I know you wont answer. That's ok. Its just the HISTORY of the way Delta has treated the F/A group far out ways in favor of the F/A. History has shown that. During past Mergers/acquisitions. Delta has protected the DELTA F/A group. If I were a plant I would have copied and pasted a lot of what management has said, however quite frankly I don't believe everything they tell us. Just like I don't believe the Union can save the day at Delta and believe everything they say. However I will stick with Delta because they are the evil that I know. I feel the Union will be a Trojan horse that we will all regret. JMHO.

Booy:
I'm not going to waste a lot of time but you are throwing rocks from the proverbial glass house.
Just take a look at that post of yours. Just stop. And reread it.
It's full of harsh judgement (your reasons why I labeled you as a plant) and teenage invective ("panties in a wad") which really surprise me coming from you. I would guess your emotions are quite raw at this time and if so, I hope that since your posting, you have been able to take a deep breath and calm down.

You also have selective memory or don't recall my private email to you. I'm only going to rehash this once more because it obviously bothers you. I made a post where I offered that I had "close to 30 years". I had made the same reference to my years of service before. My seniority was not even the main point of the posting but you decided to come in, click "reply" and with no comment on what the thread was really about, question my stated years: "I thought you said you had 30 years." WHAT difference does one or two years make in light of the conversation? The only thing I could surmise from the post was that you were trying desperately ,in a nit-picking way, to paint me, an AFA supporter, as a liar. I even explained that to you in private email and the reason I don't wish to get too specific about who I am, but to no avail. That's the skinny on that from my angle. End of story.

Now, on to the history of Delta, seniority integration, and the May 28th outcome.
Who is Delta to you? Is it Ron Allen? Can't be. Ruined the company and its long history of truly being a "family" and is gone. Leo? To many, destroyed what was left of the company, took his millions and is..yep, gone.
Sharon Wibben? Kept out the union. Mission accomplished. Gone.
Or is it this new Mgt team? What do you know about them? THEIR histories? Is it not true that Mr. Anderson worked with Frank Lorenzo? Do I need to tell you who he is? What about Mr. Steenland, who is orchestrating this combo along with Mr. Anderson? He's certainly not Delta but he's very involved and will sit on the newly-formed board. He tried to outsource NW Int'l flying. So when you say "Delta has a history of..." Just WHO are you talking about?
Now, seniority integration. How many times does Danny Campbell have to explain this? (This is another reason that you and Cooper SEEM to fit the "plant" characteristics---you simply won't acknowledge facts.) Per Mr. Campbells' numerous postings: If NW FAs sense that the Delta seniority panel is trying to "get a leg up" so-to-speak on the integration, they will immediately leave the table and it will go to an arbitrator. You are trying to compare this event to two totally different historical events: WA and PA. Western, because of them having had less-than-35% of the combined FA population, their union (AFA)was dissolved. There was no problem anyway because date of hire was used. PanAm was, as you must know by now, an acquisition of assets. They were interviewed and offered jobs. Obviously they came in knowing their union was, again, dissolved. This has been explained on this board over and over and over again. Read my lips: THERE IS NO HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR A F/A SENIORITY INTEGRATION AT DELTA OF THIS (THE OTHER AIRLINE'S) SIZE AND SCOPE. You're willing to gamble based on a "history" (of which there is none w/ these particular circumstances) by a Delta (which mostly consists of a revolving door of "leaders"...the latest only being here a few months). That's your perogative. Just as it is mine to not gamble based on the reasons I've given above.

May 28th. The day the gamblers (you and the anti-afa group) vs. the non gamblers (those, like me that voted for representation) find out who prevails. Booy, you don't know me but I'm going to be just fine if the vote fails. I certainly don't put as much stock into it as you think. If things get too unbearable, if the Intl flying is farmed out or another severe paycut gets handed down (overnight), then I have other options. I recently finished my college degree and am about to start part-time employment in another field. I carry no debt and have always lived within my means--I've saved. I also have, though not what it would have been, a small pension to supplement the income I may receive from a new job.
You are mistaken that I am frustrated. I'm not; more than anything, I'm weary of this whole debate and of the worst it can bring out in people. It reminds me a lot of politics.
I hope you continue to enjoy your career at Delta whatever the outcome.

 

[cooper43]

Each employee chose to seek work at their respective carrier.


Exactly, I chose to be hired at DAL not NWA.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Cooper--

The top 300 Delta FAs were "protected" in the Western merger. That was out of approx. 6,000. That was 5% of the total. Not many at all.
In the PanAm asset acquisition, the top 3,000 Delta FAs were protected (meaning NO PanAM FA went before them.) This was in 1991. My friend was right at the 3,000 mark. She was a 1973 Delta hire.
If you're as junior as you say, besides the other reasons (take a look at my posting to Booy) to not put this in the exact same historical context as these two merger/acquisitions, Delta's "history" is to take care of their SENIOR FAs first. Just an FYI

 

[Yankeestu]

Cooper--

Delta's "history" is to take care of their SENIOR FAs first. Just an FYI

Yup! Senior FA's have asked me on numerous occassions if the top 3000 are going to be protected and I just look at them and ask "Why would you think that?" History will not be repeating itself this go round.

Luke, I think with all the role playing here we should come out as management in favor of the unionization effort.
I think that is slightly more creative than management posing as flight attendants.

Just a thought!

 

[cooper43]

Yup! Senior FA's have asked me on numerous occassions if the top 3000 are going to be protected and I just look at them and ask "Why would you think that?" History will not be repeating itself this go round.

Luke, I think with all the role playing here we should come out as management in favor of the unionization effort.
I think that is slightly more creative than management posing as flight attendants.

Just a thought!

you have got to be real concieted to think that anyone who doesnt agree with you are some kind of spy. Maybe you should get back on your meds. You seem a little parinoid. Just and observation.

 

[Cajun Flyer]

Yup! Senior FA's have asked me on numerous occassions if the top 3000 are going to be protected and I just look at them and ask "Why would you think that?" History will not be repeating itself this go round.

Luke, I think with all the role playing here we should come out as management in favor of the unionization effort.
I think that is slightly more creative than management posing as flight attendants.

Just a thought!

Not management here. Never have been, never will be. If you take the time to read the Delta/Western seniority merger it protected senior flight attendants basically because of size and scope. The Delta flight attendants had a much larger and broader network of flights and destinations to choose from and they would be "harmed" if a straight date of hire was instituted. The Western people did not really lose out as even with this seniority integration they would still have significantly more opportunties to fly destinations and routes which were unavailable to them as Western Flight Attendants.

Now apply those same parameters to Delta/NWA and if you do a true comparison of the route and destination structure of Delta vs. NWA, you will see that Delta blows NWA away with the amount of destinations that it flies. The only areas where NWA has more opportunities is Asia, a few midwestern cities and a few Canadian cities. It's my understanding that many of the Asian routes are flown out of Tokyo where the majority of those flight attendants are not part of the NWA seniority list (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that one as I've asked a couple of times but no one from NWA has answered about the AMS and NRT based F/A's) ALL international flying at Delta is done by US based F/A's, not so at NWA from my current understanding of NWA's AMS and NRT bases. If true, then it further diminishes NWA's international routes for its US based FA's in comparison to Delta. Delta has tremendous service out of both Atlanta and JFK to Europe, Latin & South America, now has 7 destinations in Africa and several in the MidEast with more starting this summer to Amman, Jordan and to Cairo. Northwest flies minimally to Europe, little to none in Latin and South America and none to Africa or the Middle East. I will be happy to post Delta's international destinations as I've done the research myself. Just let me know.

If a straight date of hire is instituted, it will greatly benefit the NWA employees and be detrimental to Delta F/A's as we now have F/A's with as little as 9 years holding international trips out of JFK. Can anyone tell me what the most junior F/A's at NWA are that are able to hold Europe? Is it as junior as those at Delta? If not, then Delta F/A's effectively lose seniority even being junior with respect to overall seniority. I wish they would just operate the companies like Air France-KLM, that way we wouldn't have to worry about all of this mess.

 

[cooper43]

Not management here. Never have been, never will be. If you take the time to read the Delta/Western seniority merger it protected senior flight attendants basically because of size and scope. The Delta flight attendants had a much larger and broader network of flights and destinations to choose from and they would be "harmed" if a straight date of hire was instituted. The Western people did not really lose out as even with this seniority integration they would still have significantly more opportunties to fly destinations and routes which were unavailable to them as Western Flight Attendants.

Now apply those same parameters to Delta/NWA and if you do a true comparison of the route and destination structure of Delta vs. NWA, you will see that Delta blows NWA away with the amount of destinations that it flies. The only areas where NWA has more opportunities is Asia, a few midwestern cities and a few Canadian cities. It's my understanding that many of the Asian routes are flown out of Tokyo where the majority of those flight attendants are not part of the NWA seniority list (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that one as I've asked a couple of times but no one from NWA has answered about the AMS and NRT based F/A's) ALL international flying at Delta is done by US based F/A's, not so at NWA from my current understanding of NWA's AMS and NRT bases. If true, then it further diminishes NWA's international routes for its US based FA's in comparison to Delta. Delta has tremendous service out of both Atlanta and JFK to Europe, Latin & South America, now has 7 destinations in Africa and several in the MidEast with more starting this summer to Amman, Jordan and to Cairo. Northwest flies minimally to Europe, little to none in Latin and South America and none to Africa or the Middle East. I will be happy to post Delta's international destinations as I've done the research myself. Just let me know.

If a straight date of hire is instituted, it will greatly benefit the NWA employees and be detrimental to Delta F/A's as we now have F/A's with as little as 9 years holding international trips out of JFK. Can anyone tell me what the most junior F/A's at NWA are that are able to hold Europe? Is it as junior as those at Delta? If not, then Delta F/A's effectively lose seniority even being junior with respect to overall seniority. I wish they would just operate the companies like Air France-KLM, that way we wouldn't have to worry about all of this mess.

Cajunflyer, I agree with you on all accounts but most others on here are slow to see the big picture but I think they are starting to see the magnitude of the affects DOH will have on thier earnings and lifes. I would agree that it would be better to be operated seperately. I think the culture between DAL and NWA will be very difficult to merge. However, whatever happens I like most people will except any bad with any good and keep flying. I love this job too much to just walk away. It is a lifestyle not just a job.

 

[Yankeestu]

you have got to be real concieted to think that anyone who doesnt agree with you are some kind of spy. Maybe you should get back on your meds. You seem a little parinoid. Just and observation.

Funny, I didn't mention you specifically in my last post. So that makes who paranoid?

Coop....you seem unable to find any fault on DAL's part for anything, ever.
I love my government but can see flaws for what they are.
You live in a widget infused fog.
I don't know anyone (other than you) that is for or against the union that doesn't have a certain amount of resentment towards some of our company's actions.

Haven't you ever thought "Wow, they sure could have done that differently!"......hmm?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Not management here. Never have been, never will be. If you take the time to read the Delta/Western seniority merger it protected senior flight attendants basically because of size and scope. The Delta flight attendants had a much larger and broader network of flights and destinations to choose from and they would be "harmed" if a straight date of hire was instituted. The Western people did not really lose out as even with this seniority integration they would still have significantly more opportunties to fly destinations and routes which were unavailable to them as Western Flight Attendants.

Now apply those same parameters to Delta/NWA and if you do a true comparison of the route and destination structure of Delta vs. NWA, you will see that Delta blows NWA away with the amount of destinations that it flies. The only areas where NWA has more opportunities is Asia, a few midwestern cities and a few Canadian cities. It's my understanding that many of the Asian routes are flown out of Tokyo where the majority of those flight attendants are not part of the NWA seniority list (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that one as I've asked a couple of times but no one from NWA has answered about the AMS and NRT based F/A's) ALL international flying at Delta is done by US based F/A's, not so at NWA from my current understanding of NWA's AMS and NRT bases. If true, then it further diminishes NWA's international routes for its US based FA's in comparison to Delta. Delta has tremendous service out of both Atlanta and JFK to Europe, Latin & South America, now has 7 destinations in Africa and several in the MidEast with more starting this summer to Amman, Jordan and to Cairo. Northwest flies minimally to Europe, little to none in Latin and South America and none to Africa or the Middle East. I will be happy to post Delta's international destinations as I've done the research myself. Just let me know.

If a straight date of hire is instituted, it will greatly benefit the NWA employees and be detrimental to Delta F/A's as we now have F/A's with as little as 9 years holding international trips out of JFK. Can anyone tell me what the most junior F/A's at NWA are that are able to hold Europe? Is it as junior as those at Delta? If not, then Delta F/A's effectively lose seniority even being junior with respect to overall seniority. I wish they would just operate the companies like Air France-KLM, that way we wouldn't have to worry about all of this mess.

Cajun,
You lay out your case in a very thoughtful, concise manner and therefore I will be the first to say that you do make a strong point. However, it is based on the following (some known and unknown) assumptions:
1. NW FAs will either move or commute to NYC and ATL en masse.
2. There will always be openings in NYC (probable) and ATL(not as probable) to accommodate their transfers.
3. DL FAs will not leave ATL and NYC to go to SEA, SFO, PDX (soon to be NW base). Remember, there are quite a few commuters from these cities...esp SEA and PDX.
4. Many NW FAs WANT to fly DL International routes.
5. There is no dormant authority DL can revive to fly to Asia from NYC thus increasing the time. (NW used to fly JFK-NRT, I believe.)

And even with a ratio/relative seniority integration, there are still going to be FAs from NW who are going to be senior to these junior DL FAs. They may still get bumped down the list. (Think PanAm and believe me, they won't be as disadvantaged in a ranking as PA FAs were.)
And from point 3 above, think of how it will be in SEA, PDX, SFO (and even MSP--several former WAL FAs still live there from when WAL had their base), when a ratio-advantaged DL FA transfers in.

I will say that none of your points were reason for me to not vote. Besides, the arbitrator (NW FAs will not agree on a ratio that disadvantages them) will have to see your point and rule in favor based on the findings you presented. I'm not saying that wouldn't happen, but it's a gamble as there are other factors involved.