AFA Labor Discussion (Work Conditions) 7-7 -

[ebwgs]

I can assure you, the East group is fast coming together against this contract. While we are told to wait and see, if even a hint of what we have been told develops on issues like CSD, PREF BID (loss of jobs), Reserve ect... We will be without a contract for a while. We will vote it down and send a NEW committee back after a new member survey to negotiate.
PITBull is 100% right. We are carrying HP-AWA in our 40+ years of contract history to their 7? Not their fault but no the less a horror show.

I'm open to CSD, need more info on preferential bidding and very watchful of any new reserve proposals. I am in no way receptive to anything faintly resembling a concession however. And FYI, I'm a eastie with westie bloodlines.

 

[BoeingBoy]

need more info on preferential bidding

It's pretty simple in concept - you put in your preferences and the computer tries it's best to build a block that best matches your preferences with whatever trips are left when it gets to you. If you're at or near the top in base, you get pretty much the schedule you want as long as you don't want something that doesn't exist (like 1-days that leave after 11am and are done before 1pm).

The further down you are in base, the less likely you are to get what you want and the bottom people get whats left when the computer gets to them (i.e. junk trips that nobody else wanted).

The potential problems come with implementation. How many and what are the preferences you can adjust. If the computer can't meet all your preferences, can you specify which are more important or does the computer treat them all the same and just try to satisfy the hihgest number of preferences (if only able to meet at most 6 preferences, does it satisfy those 6 even if they're the least important of 10 or satisfy only 4 of 10 if those 4 are most important to you).

Jim

 

[N903AW]

And therein lies a problem. When something does come up it may be a gain for FAs on the West (perhaps) and a concession for FAs on the East or Vice Versa.

NO concessions on EITHER side. From what I've been hearing it is both. I have the horriible feeling that many FAs will vote "just to get a contract" .... At what cost?

To be perfectly honest, You have nothing to worry about if you're voting from the East. I don't even know why AFA wants to bother putting any TA to the West for a vote anyways. West votes WON'T MATTER.

East outnumbers West 3 to 1, so the votes from the West - regardless of how good or bad the first tentative agreement will be - are not an issue.

We want a good, no make that a GREAT contract. We are beyond frustrated with our old, long expired, West contract. We do not want to accept any concessions, either. Period.

All we ask is that our East counterparts do ALL of us proud. Because your votes will be the only ones that matter or make a difference.

 

[jec9]

Well said N903AW !!

 

[Zarah]

To be perfectly honest, You have nothing to worry about if you're voting from the East. I don't even know why AFA wants to bother putting any TA to the West for a vote anyways. West votes WON'T MATTER.

East outnumbers West 3 to 1, so the votes from the West - regardless of how good or bad the first tentative agreement will be - are not an issue.

We want a good, no make that a GREAT contract. We are beyond frustrated with our old, long expired, West contract. We do not want to accept any concessions, either. Period.

All we ask is that our East counterparts do ALL of us proud. Because your votes will be the only ones that matter or make a difference.

You assume the East will have a large percentage of voters. This is not always the case and you never know how those on the East will even vote. They can say one thing and vote another way. Using the last contract as an example, I have yet to find anybody who voted FOR the contract and yet it passed.

It is very dangerous to assume West votes won't matter as that can lead to people not caring to vote and that will completely change the outcome. Everybody needs to vote. Everybody. A large voting percentage is the only way to show the company that we care about our contract and our future.

 

[aptboeses]

It's pretty simple in concept - you put in your preferences and the computer tries it's best to build a block that best matches your preferences with whatever trips are left when it gets to you. If you're at or near the top in base, you get pretty much the schedule you want as long as you don't want something that doesn't exist (like 1-days that leave after 11am and are done before 1pm).

The further down you are in base, the less likely you are to get what you want and the bottom people get whats left when the computer gets to them (i.e. junk trips that nobody else wanted).

The potential problems come with implementation. How many and what are the preferences you can adjust. If the computer can't meet all your preferences, can you specify which are more important or does the computer treat them all the same and just try to satisfy the hihgest number of preferences (if only able to meet at most 6 preferences, does it satisfy those 6 even if they're the least important of 10 or satisfy only 4 of 10 if those 4 are most important to you).

Jim

I've used a PBS at another airline and I loved it. It's the ultimate exercise in seniority. The beauty of it is that it takes your preferences and tries to award you trips that fit those preferences. Not everyone has the same preferences so some of the "good" trips do make it down the seniority list. PBS also allows you to avoid trips that you don't want so if you don't want to fly on the steaming sauna otherwise known as the 737 during the summer you can put it on your avoid list and most likely not have to set foot on it all summer. Once you learn the logic the program uses in assigning trips and days off you can make really great schedules.

I can explain the logic of the AIMS system that I used and trained pilots and flight attendants on. It's really just the basic concept of top to bottom and left to right. What that means is that it takes your first preference first and tries to satisfy it first on the first day. If it can't satisfy that preference it moves down to the second preference and so on until it satisfies your preference or exhausts your preferences list. (I just described top to bottom) Then the computer moves on to the next day and starts that process all over again and proceeds in this fashion until it finishes the bid month. (I just described left to right) Once it finishes with you the program moves on to the next person junior to you.

You can bid very specific (a certain pairing on a certain day) or you can bid very general (any trip that operates MON - FRI). You can bid by aircraft type, overnight cities, commutable pairings, minimum time, maximum time and a whole slew of other options.

I do have some warnings to though but they're not about PBS but rather about the bidder. The biggest thing to remember is the program works only as well as the bidder inputs their preferences. You have to know what your seniority is and what that can afford you. So if you can't hold Athens now you most likely won't hold Athens on any average day with PBS. If you're very senior pick what you actually want to work not everything you can bid. You will save yourself A LOT of time bidding and then dropping trips you never really wanted in the first place. If you're really junior it's best to bid very general such as maximum time on a defined set of days that way you guarantee yourself hours. Also be careful how you bid so as not to conflict your own preferences. Sometimes people put so many preferences in that they conflict with other preferences they put in and they get confused and their entire schedule turns into a big mess of trips they didn't want. It's VERY important to remember the program logic of top to bottom and left to right when bidding.

There's a whole lot to learn about PBS and every company uses it a little differently but overall it's a great system. You just have to educate yourself on how to properly use it and how to bid according to your real seniority. If you choose not to learn how to use it you only do yourself a HUGE disservice.

 

[N903AW]

You assume the East will have a large percentage of voters. This is not always the case and you never know how those on the East will even vote. They can say one thing and vote another way. Using the last contract as an example, I have yet to find anybody who voted FOR the contract and yet it passed.

It is very dangerous to assume West votes won't matter as that can lead to people not caring to vote and that will completely change the outcome. Everybody needs to vote. Everybody. A large voting percentage is the only way to show the company that we care about our contract and our future.

Zarah, no assumptions being made actually. Just reality in numbers. Even if two-thirds of the East based membership opted not to vote, the remaining third would still be able to swing the vote, probably unanimously, with or without the participation of the West membership.

I will be voting on the first TA that comes out. Voting a big fat NO. Whatever is written in the first TA will always have room for further improvement if it is rejected by the membership.

It's not that I don't care - but many of us on the West know that our opinions and our votes will not be the ones that will pass a contract. It will be your votes that count. I have no heartache with this and am actually holding onto the faith that our colleagues on the East will never allow a substandard TA come to pass and will only vote yes when it is beneficial to all of our membership.

So, to our colleagues on the East....stay united, stay strong and stay informed.

You will be the ones ultimately responsible for deciding our future at US Airways.

 

[really?noreally]

Zarah, no assumptions being made actually. Just reality in numbers. Even if two-thirds of the East based membership opted not to vote, the remaining third would still be able to swing the vote, probably unanimously, with or without the participation of the West membership.

I will be voting on the first TA that comes out. Voting a big fat NO. Whatever is written in the first TA will always have room for further improvement if it is rejected by the membership.

It's not that I don't care - but many of us on the West know that our opinions and our votes will not be the ones that will pass a contract. It will be your votes that count. I have no heartache with this and am actually holding onto the faith that our colleagues on the East will never allow a substandard TA come to pass and will only vote yes when it is beneficial to all of our membership.

So, to our colleagues on the East....stay united, stay strong and stay informed.

You will be the ones ultimately responsible for deciding our future at US Airways.

thank you for understanding N903AW. the humaniods at the table for the east seem not to be listening to the east members. we are hearing concession trading going on. sounds like a negative vote to many of us.....maybe some new blood at the table for the east will bring us back the improvements we deserve for living under this horrendous contract.

 

[Travelpro72]

I don't think this is going to be pretty. More and more people are leaning to a NO vote. Maybe the JNC should have listened to what their members want NOW and not from a poll almost 5 years ago. They are so G'damn out of touch it's pathetic. Besides the "me-too" issue we better gain EVERY vacation day lost from all concessions. Let's just start off with something as simple as that.

 

[ebwgs]

Zarah, no assumptions being made actually. Just reality in numbers. Even if two-thirds of the East based membership opted not to vote, the remaining third would still be able to swing the vote, probably unanimously, with or without the participation of the West membership.

I will be voting on the first TA that comes out. Voting a big fat NO. Whatever is written in the first TA will always have room for further improvement if it is rejected by the membership.

It's not that I don't care - but many of us on the West know that our opinions and our votes will not be the ones that will pass a contract. It will be your votes that count. I have no heartache with this and am actually holding onto the faith that our colleagues on the East will never allow a substandard TA come to pass and will only vote yes when it is beneficial to all of our membership.

So, to our colleagues on the East....stay united, stay strong and stay informed.

You will be the ones ultimately responsible for deciding our future at US Airways. You GO N903!

Wow! It's good to sense that solidarity is starting to rear its beautiful head among our ranks.

 

[beachboy]

Besides the "me-too" issue we better gain EVERY vacation day lost from all concessions. Let's just start off with something as simple as that.

Travel, that would be too logical and I sit here today and will tell you I will do everything in my power to ensure this fails if no brain things like restoration of VAC is not in the new agreement. 2000 rates PERIOD. And don't even try it AFA and Tempe....retro active accrual to the day of ratification. You may think we were born yesterday but we are not afraid this time and we are numb. We will shut it down. Cindi Simone are you reading this? Of course you are as I can only hope you are still in your Chanel Suit too see the change that is coming. These past 5 years were a cake walk.....elections are coming.
Oh BTW Carol A is not attending negotiations. She has an ongoing illness in the family. You only have one rep named Mike Flores representing you at the table. Short changed again East folks. Is Carol claiming sick time? LOL Good luck finding that out!

Try to pull a fast one. You will fail and then be voted out of office. Grab a trash bag.

 

[PITbull]

You assume the East will have a large percentage of voters. This is not always the case and you never know how those on the East will even vote. They can say one thing and vote another way. Using the last contract as an example, I have yet to find anybody who voted FOR the contract and yet it passed.

It is very dangerous to assume West votes won't matter as that can lead to people not caring to vote and that will completely change the outcome. Everybody needs to vote. Everybody. A large voting percentage is the only way to show the company that we care about our contract and our future.

You are so right. This IS the message to get out!

 

[PITbull]

thank you for understanding N903AW. the humaniods at the table for the east seem not to be listening to the east members. we are hearing concession trading going on. sounds like a negative vote to many of us.....maybe some new blood at the table for the east will bring us back the improvements we deserve for living under this horrendous contract.

You can't get rid of Mike Flores on the JNC unless he's recalled as an MECP. According to AFA bylaws the MECP of an airline automatically is on their negotiation committee. Now on the other hand, Carol Austin was voted on the team in 2005, however it took about 32 round with the MEC cause we just didn't want her there anymore. She was pretty much running renegade on us with the company and we had to call her on the carpet quite a few times in 2005 as she was having discussions with the company without the presence of the MECP at that time. So, we were done with her "comforability" with management. We just didn't have enough rollcall votes with those members of the MEC (PIT, LGA, BOS, CLT) who wanted her OUT during that time period. With the closing of 3 of the 6 bases whose presidents were fighters and true advocates for the f/a group are now gone, you have 3 base presidents left that make up the voting members of the MEC, and only CLT whose numbers can't beat PHL and DCA who align together, so CLT ends up giving in, specifically because Mike F. is in her base intimidating her.

This is why I think there needs to be a cleaning house in all bases of their entire administation. Glenda T. in CLT was once a base manager, she should not be representing the f/as in CLT as a union rep. Nor should she ever have been elected to system board for all the years she had. That was because the current and previous presidents of the base kept pushing the MEC to vote her in. I never gave her one vote. She is too close to the company on those levels she previously worked and I have no idea why CLT f/as put up with this...

But back to the main topic...both Carol and Mike need to go, Carol for sure as the first order of union business. She hasn't flown in probably upwards of 8-10 years now. Hasn't had to work under the concessionary contracts as she has been paid from AFA to do the f/a pairings and negotiations. She is fast approaching 70 years old and collects from AFA 105 International, PBGC Retirement systems and Social Security. She has NO incentive or interest in what f/as fly or what they want or need, and doesn't care at all what the reserve systems looks like or that it literally is slavery.

You need people on this team, one reserve and one senior who have been flying for years and years under these concessionary contracts. These are the people who instinctively know the problems and issues and where improvements can be made. These folks then can bring proposals to the MEC for their review and consent.

The problem here is that the current Eastt MEC doesn't want to micromanage the neg. committee (cause they CAN make a motion to make the committee come and discuss every proposal or discussions they have with the company after every meeting via conference call), but PHL, DCA, CLT are either too lazy to bother or they just don't understand the process. McCorkey has the most f/as for now in his base and his the LEAST knowledge, experience and understanding of how this process works as he has never been on any AFA committee previous to his election in PHL. And he still can't negotiate anything unless its fed to him by Mike F.

 

[N903AW]

There will be votes from the West membership, that's a given. But they will be insignificant and irrelevant.

The votes from East of the Mississippi will be the ones that are going to make the impact and determine the outcome of any TA that is put before us.

This is where the strentgh of the membership is. Until this joint contract is ratified we are essentially still separated as two airlines - US Airways and America West. The voting numbers of our CLT, DCA and PHL bases will be the deciding factor of what contract we will have. The Phoenix base, even if we had a 100 percent turnout with the vote, is simply along for the ride and will be dependant on the votes of the other domiciles.

 

[AstroLounge]

Wow! It's good to sense that solidarity is starting to rear its beautiful head among our ranks.

ALWAYS Vote NO on A-n-y Tenative Agreement. Never 'settle' on the first crumbs that are thrown your way. Restoration of ALL the previous cuts SHOULD BE the first order of business..........and THEN "We'll Talk". (It's NOT Our First Day at the Rodeo Tempe.)