AAA ALPA Topic 8/24/07 - 8/31-07

[767jetz]

I'm sure you will come back with some quip about how you are concerned because this affects you. Of course, if you truly believed that, you wouldn't have

...it probably pisses the hell out of you to see a pilot group sticking together for a change.

You are right... I am concerned about how this affects every ALPA member. ALPA merger policy was followed, and the vocal East minority is up in arms because the arbitration went against them.

This is the same exact argument we (UA) had with the East back in 1999/2000. You guys basically said there will be no negotiation. It's DOH or the highway. "We'll see you in arbitration." The only difference is that the West actually had the opportunity to take it to the arbitrator, and he ruled strongly against you. (Just as he would have back in 2000.) Back then we (UA) claimed that we "aren't stealing anybodies seniority but protecting the flying that <United> brought to the <acquisition>, for those flying it." And your response was some other lame justification about how we were trying to take your seniority. When we said "fences forever" you said "go to he11."

Your hypocrisy is obvious. Please spare me the lecture on your self-proclaimed righteousness.

If you were really interested in solutions and compromise, you would negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. Anything short of that proves that you only have one agenda.

And FYI, I take great union pride in seeing a pilot group (THE WEST) sticking together against a group intent on theft.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I agree. Put a Joint Contract out for a vote. What are you scared of? Put up or shut up. Right?
Because the MEC is keeping busy acting and sounding tough, while maintaining strict control of the message that gets out to the members. They didn't even want the rank and file to read the transcripts of the arbitration for themselves. They won't even let pilots talk to Prater without "supervision" or without being prepared or coached. Teenagers call it peer pressure. Adults call it censorship.

The only proof you need is to put a Joint Contract out for a vote. Either way the majority will get their way, and you'll have your proof. Isn't that what you and your like continue to advocate?? What do you have to lose? Or are you afraid that the majority of pilots will "speak up" against you with their vote? Hmmmmm.

Mr United Spin Master,

Where is your info about........ majority?????
It is time for you put up or shut up!

Show us all the numbers or information to support your theory of the majority.

If the MAJORITY is as you state then why have there not been any recalls????????????????


Yes the UAL guys are right about you Mr. Know it All

 

[BottomFeeder]

You are right... I am concerned about how this affects every ALPA member. ALPA merger policy was followed, and the vocal East minority is up in arms because the arbitration went against them.


And FYI, I take great union pride in seeing a pilot group (THE WEST) sticking together against a group intent on theft.

Mr. United Spin Master,

Once again I ask you to post your supporting info about the minority or majority?

Show ALL of the folks here just how informed you are. This is your great chance to to win for once!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BottomFeeder]

I agree. Put a Joint Contract out for a vote. What are you scared of? Put up or shut up. Right?

Mr. United Spin Master,

You said you want the East gone from ALPA since they are nothing but trouble.

Now you want a joint contract to vote on which puts the East in ALPA.

Do you have hot flashes or mood swings????????????

 

[BottomFeeder]

Let's take it a step further and assume there is some legal long shot technicality that results in the award being thrown out. Do you honestly believe the results will be that much different with a new arbitrator? You guys will ride the DOH horse in the desert once again and die there. Relative seniority will prevail as the only FAIR solution!!

Just how long does this process take?

 

[Mr Furlough]

Now what USA320Pilot had to say about the status of the MDA pilots - after the PID:

"Thus, the only way a person can be a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from mainline, then hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off the street."

"The US Airways pilots flying at MDA are, by default, furloughed US Airways and not active mainline pilots."

And what did USA320Pilot think of the MDA lawsuit (and he even threw in another "their furloughed and not active" remark):

"While it's doubtful the MDA pilots will obtain relief, this lawsuit will probably wind up hurting everyone (especially the MDA pilots) and accomplish nothing positive, especially if the MDA pilots ever try to return to the mainline and work at US Airways after a recall. I would not want to be a co-pilot who sued the captain, which would not be a good experience for the newly recalled pilot."

Jim

My understanding is somewhat different. The MDA Pilots have a good case. I believe it will pay them quit handsomely (just my opinion). To fully appreciate the beating these Pilots had taken, you have to be one of them. As they were played from both sides (management and the union). While I elected not to go to MDA, I am apart of this end of the seniority list. From my vantage point, these guys got screwed seven ways till Sunday. Nicolau was metaphorically just the cherry on top. This was at the hands of our own Pilots mind you. MDA was put simply; a disaster paid for and supported by the Pilots of usairways and yes, ALPA.

I can appreciate your feeling that you might not want to be a First Officer flying with a guy that you just tattooed in court. But from my seat, I'm looking at the very one's responsible for the fiasco in the first place. After all, it wasn't their families being thrown to the wolves-it was ours. We were furloughed and thusly, had no material say in union matters. And nobody took the initiative, as they should have, to stop it.

Nobody wants to find themselves in our position. But if you're going after a man's career you had better come with the rules of engagement in check. ALPA did not. And that is why we will all have a juicy assessment to pay for it. But let's just wait and see. In combination of loosing AAA membership, along with a big loss here-that just might be the end game for ALPA.

Best,

 

[nostradamus]

You are right... I am concerned about how this affects every ALPA member. ALPA merger policy was followed, and the vocal East minority is up in arms because the arbitration went against them.

And FYI, I take great union pride in seeing a pilot group (THE WEST) sticking together against a group intent on theft.

Do you take pride in the fact that every major airline pilot that is represented by ALPA has their pensions, turned over to the tax payers, while the airline executives are walking away with millions of dollars. United, Northwest, Delta and Usairways pilots all lost.

Apparently there is a group of your pilots with United that do not share your enthusiasm with ALPA "leadership".

United Pilot website that does not share your naive pride

 

[AAA73Pilot]

My understanding is somewhat different. The MDA Pilots have a good case. I believe it will pay them quit handsomely (just my opinion). To fully appreciate the beating these Pilots had taken, you have to be one of them. As they were played from both sides (management and the union). While I elected not to go to MDA, I am apart of this end of the seniority list. From my vantage point, these guys got screwed seven ways till Sunday. Nicolau was metaphorically just the cherry on top. This was at the hands of our own Pilots mind you. MDA was put simply; a disaster paid for and supported by the Pilots of usairways and yes, ALPA.

I can appreciate your feeling that you might not want to be a First Officer flying with a guy that you just tattooed in court. But from my seat, I'm looking at the very one's responsible for the fiasco in the first place. After all, it wasn't their families being thrown to the wolves-it was ours. We were furloughed and thusly, had no material say in union matters. And nobody took the initiative, as they should have, to stop it.

Nobody wants to find themselves in our position. But if you're going after a man's career you had better come with the rules of engagement in check. ALPA did not. And that is why we will all have a juicy assessment to pay for it. But let's just wait and see. In combination of loosing AAA membership, along with a big loss here-that just might be the end game for ALPA.

Best,

Well said

Later Prater

 

[nostradamus]

**** HYPOCRITE ALERT ****
The East MEC only understands their above statement when it supports their self-centered view of the world. They fail to comprehend (or admit) that their past record of demanding DOH at all cost is what got them the results of the Nicolau award, and the response from the West and the other 57,000 ALPA pilots.
And apparently so are bindingly arbitrated settlements in the East's one-sided world.
Another example would be the mediated phase required by ALPA's merger policy. See comments above.
TALK ABOUT FUD!
Now the East is moving to the next step in their strategy. Since their fear tactics, threats of decertification, threats of safety consequences to management and their customers, holding their fellow employees hostage, and deliberate destruction of the daily operation has failed to forward their agenda, they are now preparing to "manage" the fears of their membership in preparation of the eventual day of reckoning.

You see, the East MEC are really the fearful ones. They fear that the majority of East pilots are growing tired of the stalemate, and do not support their DOH at all cost mentality. They know that if a reasonable Joint Contract is allowed to reach the hands of the general membership that address many of the pilot's concerns, then cooler heads will prevail. They fear that they will lose control of their self centered agenda, and in the end lose their position of power.

Don't be fooled. They don't care about the wellbeing of the majority of East pilots. They don't care about the returning MDA pilots. (Who they use as pawns, once adamantly insisting they are furloughed pilots, but then saying they were continuously employed East pilots when it suits them to do so.) They don't care about the interests of the majority of pilots and their families who would benefit from ending this stalemate and negotiating a Joint Contract. They only care about DOH to position themselves for the next corporate transaction scheme they think is imminent.

And now they will start their own FUD campaign directed at their own pilots. They are becoming more and more desperate, and it will only deteriorate further as their options evaporate. It's time for rational minds, the silent majority, to step up and put the East MEC in their place.

Decadence is a difficult word to use since it has become little more than a term of abuse applied by critics to anything they do not yet understand or which seems to differ from their moral concepts.
Ernest Hemingway

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You are right... I am concerned about how this affects every ALPA member. ALPA merger policy was followed, and the vocal East minority is up in arms because the arbitration went against them.

This is the same exact argument we (UA) had with the East back in 1999/2000. You guys basically said there will be no negotiation. It's DOH or the highway. "We'll see you in arbitration." The only difference is that the West actually had the opportunity to take it to the arbitrator, and he ruled strongly against you. (Just as he would have back in 2000.) Back then we (UA) claimed that we "aren't stealing anybodies seniority but protecting the flying that <United> brought to the <acquisition>, for those flying it." And your response was some other lame justification about how we were trying to take your seniority. When we said "fences forever" you said "go to he11."

Your hypocrisy is obvious. Please spare me the lecture on your self-proclaimed righteousness.

If you were really interested in solutions and compromise, you would negotiate a Joint Contract and put it out for a vote. Anything short of that proves that you only have one agenda.

And FYI, I take great union pride in seeing a pilot group (THE WEST) sticking together against a group intent on theft.

What policy? It has now been determined they are guidelines imbedded in the Constitution and ByLaws.

Sorry, we are not the vocal minority. Just for different reasons. Every USAPA card is a no vote to the CBA. For some as long as Nic is around it's a No. For others it would be a statement against ALPA. Even more would say $122m is not enough. (Parity plus 3% is still a substandard contract) You really don't want us to negotiate a contract right now as divided as we are. Because the next time any other carrier goes into negotiations, expect Jerry Glass and company to come in on managements side.

We'll never know how a 2001 process would turn out since it didn't happen. We do know what the DOJ said was there biggest problem with the merger. All those little "Problems have been solved". I wonder how it would turn out now if it was proposed again today. I also wonder how it would go if our boy Doug went trolling again. He "found" the money to try and buy DAL didn't he? Only this time it might be USAirways buying UAL.

You say theft? By the east? You really have it mixed up. But you're entitled to your opinion. And so am I.

Later Prater

 

[hp_fa]

Sorry, we are not the vocal minority. Just for different reasons. Every USAPA card is a no vote to the CBA.

Maybe, but I suspect not entirely correct. There could well be folks who submitted a USAPA card who are simply looking to have the election sooner rather then later and are just trying, in their mind, to expedite the process a bit.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Maybe, but I suspect not entirely correct. There could well be folks who submitted a USAPA card who are simply looking to have the election sooner rather then later and are just trying, in their mind, to expedite the process a bit.

I love to cut and paste to take things out of context.

This is the whole paragragh again.

Sorry, we are not the vocal minority. Just for different reasons. Every USAPA card is a no vote to the CBA. For some as long as Nic is around it's a No. For others it would be a statement against ALPA. Even more would say $122m is not enough. (Parity plus 3% is still a substandard contract) You really don't want us to negotiate a contract right now as divided as we are. Because the next time any other carrier goes into negotiations, expect Jerry Glass and company to come in on managements side.

So your assumption is that some USAPA supporters will vote yes to an ALPA negotiated CBA? The reply was to why doesn't ALPA negotiate a CBA and put it out for a vote by 767Jetz. What election are you talking about? A new CBA or a new union? And how would passing the new ALPA negotiated CBA be in the best interests of a USAPA supporter?

Unless of course you mean the cards coming from the west guys, who are sending them in for their own reasons. (However the question was directed to the East pilots.) In which case some of those card types might vote yes for an ALPA negotiated CBA. I personally haven't talked to anyone yet to find out why they are sending them in.

It will be easier to get USAPA elected as the new rep than to get an election.

Later Prater

 

[Junebug172]

So, looks like things are coming to a head here in the next month. Expect to see the company to start throwing a bit of coin eastward. At the same time ALPA National will not allow the east to set them up for legal action by the company. By pulling the JNC from the table, the east MEC exposes ALPA to breech of contract/bad faith negotiations and ALPA isn't going to allow itself to be put in that position. ALPA will put your MEC into trusteeship, bypass your MEC, and send a TA to the east for a vote.

The TA gets voted in, the Nicolau Award is put into play, and the east continues to retire in huge numbers.

 

[Junebug172]

Now that would not be fun. :down:

It would be better to stay status quo for a few years.
East: Attrition , Upgrades , Recalls , Reserve to Blockholder , 70 Million reasons in 2 lump payments

West: Stagnation , Career Reserves , Upgrades , Contract What

Hey BottomFeeder, you also forgot:

East: LOA93 , only 10 days of vacations a year (30+ in the West) , C-Scale pay ie. no pay parity , Credit time begins at 3 kts (West is doors), etc, etc.

What a pinhead.

West pilot: Hey BottomFeeder, your house is on fire.
BottomFeeder: Ya, but check out my lawn - its awesome.
West pilot: Uh, but your house is burning down.
BottomFeeder: Ya, but my lawn rocks!!!

 

[Junebug172]

dupe