AAA ALPA Topic 8/24/07 - 8/31-07

[Junebug172]

He's reaping exactly what he sowed over the past 6 years, and now he's whining abou it.

Sounds like you're doing the same thing, eh hypocrite?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

"While it's doubtful the MDA pilots will obtain relief, this lawsuit will probably wind up hurting everyone (especially the MDA pilots) and accomplish nothing positive, especially if the MDA pilots ever try to return to the mainline and work at US Airways after a recall. I would not want to be a co-pilot who sued the captain, which would not be a good experience for the newly recalled pilot."

Jim

Talked to an ex-MDA pilot this weekend. Lots of them back on the property. His morale is not very good to say the least. 18 years with the company total, 2 or 3 years furlough time. Actually he said he's getting a lot of support from the Captains he's flown with. His position is, "What do I have to lose? Last is still last. At my age there is no future for advancement without the attrition move up."

I felt and saw the frustration.

 

[hp_fa]

OK FINE, use one hat then.

Come on Bob. How many people or business do you know that are going to win a legal proceeding and then decide to negotiate with the other party and basically negotiate a win away?

 

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways PHL Council 41 LEC Update - August 27, 2007

Let’s Make A Deal

Dear Philadelphia Pilots,

So how much will it take to buy your seniority?

1. More pay per hour?
2. More vacation days?
3. a 2 year fence?
4. more shiny new airplanes?
5. All of the above?

The attorneys at ALPA National can’t fathom that you won’t agree to the Nicolau Award for a price. The AWA MEC is betting that with enough dollars dragged in front of your noses there will be 50.1% of you to vote “Yes†on the next offer. You can bet that’s their advice to their friends in the management ranks at Team Tempe. Then, there are our brothers at our National Associations. The Rice Commission is looking for solutions to “buy your yes vote†and get them off the hook, relieving them of any liability for the “taxation without representation†or “paying dues for failed ALPA policies and weak leadershipâ€.

Team Tempe is not happy with the loss of control over the time line. Just a few months ago Mr. Parker was telling all who would listen that he could run these Airlines separate indefinitely. Now, he can’t wait much longer and may request mediation. Good Luck with that request. What is Team Tempe going to throw into the collection plate to get your “Yes†vote?

What they all don’t seem to understand is how past experiences affect future outcomes. Captain Prater recently wrote to us explaining some of the recent success of ALPA National on this property. One Big problem for us, the pilots that have lived under these so called successes, is that they were complete failures! The lesson we learned from the recent past is that negotiated settlements are made to be broken. In fact, we learned that often the reneging of agreements is preplanned at the time of negotiations. One example was our retirement concessions. We have learned our lesson. When we negotiate, we will negotiate accordingly, or not at all.

Be prepared for “Let’s Make A Dealâ€! (remember the TV game show)

So how much will it take to buy your seniority? Mr. Parker would love to know. He has already started the process of negotiating around our Negotiating Committee. In his August 16, 2007 letter to the pilots he indicates that the list doesn’t have to be implemented right away. Oh really. How about implementation at the expiration of our contract, say January 2010? Will that work for you all? Would you take what’s behind door #1?

Nah, it doesn’t work for your PHL Reps. See… all that attrition that they are “giving†you with the extension/fence, will slow considerably when age 60 changes. When the next merger comes, our attrition will pick up again just in time for pilots of our new merger partner to benefit. Remember, it is “our†attrition.

How about SHINY new aircraft, or big used aircraft? That should get some of you leaning towards the “Yes†side, right? Would you take what’s behind door #2?

Not your PHL Reps. These Amateurs out West can’t manage the Airline at its current size. While we agree that we should be expanding with our current cost structure, this would be another management disaster. Besides, you never expand something that you’re trying to flip.

How about more pay, like $170 to $180 per hour for narrow body Captains? That should get your attention! The old Green backs! How can you pass up what’s behind door #3?

Well, how long do you think it will last? Till the next negotiation, the next downturn, the next “eventâ€; they may even talk you into funding the next merger for them!

Wait a minute….there is a shiny new box that Jerry Glass is bringing up the aisle. How about what’s in the box?

This is the real motivator, classic Jerry Glass. Works every time! FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Fear that causes division among the pilots. This has worked time and time again for Jerry Glass. Big surprises come in those little boxes sometimes.

Sprinkle a little fear into the mix of dollar$, growth, delayed implementation, and presto, Glass wins! Nothing other than the old Carrot and stick Negotiations…….it’s coming. Target 50.1%

So, time is running out! You need to decide. Is it door number 1, Door number 2, Or Door number 3, or this shiny box that Jerry Glass has brought up the aisle? Which is it?

Are 50.1% of our pilots going to sell our seniority? Everyone is waiting.

Or, do we walk out of the game show?

Your PHL Reps say “No Deal†because our seniority is not for sale, not for money, not for airplanes, and not for temporary fences and guarantees. It is not for sale. Period. No Deal!

Keep a watch out for the shiny new deals, and the big stick from MGT, remember to duck. I wonder where Carol Merrill is Today?

Follow the three prong approach, Fly safe, Family First, and SAP down for quality of life.

Fraternally,

Eric Rowe
Dave Ciabattoni
Jim Portale

 

[Junebug172]

Alrighty then tough guys. Put out a TA and let your pilots vote on it instead of withdrawing your JNC from the table and making the decision for your pilots.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Come on Bob. How many people or business do you know that are going to win a legal proceeding and then decide to negotiate with the other party and basically negotiate a win away?

Ahem! Just because they feel they "lost" doesn't mean the West "won". A fair integrated list is neither a win nor a loss for either side.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Alrighty then tough guys. Put out a TA and let your pilots vote on it instead of withdrawing your JNC from the table and making the decision for your pilots.

Now that would not be fun. :down:

It would be better to stay status quo for a few years.
East: Attrition , Upgrades , Recalls , Reserve to Blockholder , 70 Million reasons in 2 lump payments

West: Stagnation , Career Reserves , Upgrades , Contract What

 

[767jetz]

What they all don’t seem to understand is how past experiences affect future outcomes.

**** HYPOCRITE ALERT ****
The East MEC only understands their above statement when it supports their self-centered view of the world. They fail to comprehend (or admit) that their past record of demanding DOH at all cost is what got them the results of the Nicolau award, and the response from the West and the other 57,000 ALPA pilots.

The lesson we learned from the recent past is that negotiated settlements are made to be broken.

And apparently so are bindingly arbitrated settlements in the East's one-sided world.

In fact, we learned that often the reneging of agreements is preplanned at the time of negotiations. One example was our retirement concessions. We have learned our lesson.

Another example would be the mediated phase required by ALPA's merger policy. See comments above.

Be prepared for “Let’s Make A Dealâ€￾!n
So how much will it take to buy your seniority?
Works every time! FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
Are 50.1% of our pilots going to sell our seniority? Everyone is waiting.
Or, do we walk out of the game show?

TALK ABOUT FUD!
Now the East is moving to the next step in their strategy. Since their fear tactics, threats of decertification, threats of safety consequences to management and their customers, holding their fellow employees hostage, and deliberate destruction of the daily operation has failed to forward their agenda, they are now preparing to "manage" the fears of their membership in preparation of the eventual day of reckoning.

You see, the East MEC are really the fearful ones. They fear that the majority of East pilots are growing tired of the stalemate, and do not support their DOH at all cost mentality. They know that if a reasonable Joint Contract is allowed to reach the hands of the general membership that address many of the pilot's concerns, then cooler heads will prevail. They fear that they will lose control of their self centered agenda, and in the end lose their position of power.

Don't be fooled. They don't care about the wellbeing of the majority of East pilots. They don't care about the returning MDA pilots. (Who they use as pawns, once adamantly insisting they are furloughed pilots, but then saying they were continuously employed East pilots when it suits them to do so.) They don't care about the interests of the majority of pilots and their families who would benefit from ending this stalemate and negotiating a Joint Contract. They only care about DOH to position themselves for the next corporate transaction scheme they think is imminent.

And now they will start their own FUD campaign directed at their own pilots. They are becoming more and more desperate, and it will only deteriorate further as their options evaporate. It's time for rational minds, the silent majority, to step up and put the East MEC in their place.

 

[P51Pilot]

**** HYPOCRITE ALERT ****
The East MEC only understands their above statement when it supports their self-centered view of the world. They fail to comprehend (or admit) that their past record of demanding DOH at all cost is what got them the results of the Nicolau award, and the response from the West and the other 57,000 ALPA pilots.
And apparently so are bindingly arbitrated settlements in the East's one-sided world.
Another example would be the mediated phase required by ALPA's merger policy. See comments above.
TALK ABOUT FUD!
Now the East is moving to the next step in their strategy. Since their fear tactics, threats of decertification, threats of safety consequences to management and their customers, holding their fellow employees hostage, and deliberate destruction of the daily operation has failed to forward their agenda, they are now preparing to "manage" the fears of their membership in preparation of the eventual day of reckoning.

You see, the East MEC are really the fearful ones. They fear that the majority of East pilots are growing tired of the stalemate, and do not support their DOH at all cost mentality. They know that if a reasonable Joint Contract is allowed to reach the hands of the general membership that address many of the pilot's concerns, then cooler heads will prevail. They fear that they will lose control of their self centered agenda, and in the end lose their position of power.

Don't be fooled. They don't care about the wellbeing of the majority of East pilots. They don't care about the returning MDA pilots. (Who they use as pawns, once adamantly insisting they are furloughed pilots, but then saying they were continuously employed East pilots when it suits them to do so.) They don't care about the interests of the majority of pilots and their families who would benefit from ending this stalemate and negotiating a Joint Contract. They only care about DOH to position themselves for the next corporate transaction scheme they think is imminent.

And now they will start their own FUD campaign directed at their own pilots. They are becoming more and more desperate, and it will only deteriorate further as their options evaporate. It's time for rational minds, the silent majority, to step up and put the East MEC in their place.

That's a funny take on it since the Captain Rep writing the council letter is North of 150 on the seniority list and was placed via DOH under the "St Nic" award. He has no dog in the fight and could easily sit on his laurels and collect a nice raise via a joint contract. Just maybe his motivation isn't self interest or selling out the pilots he represents for personal gain, but since you jump to that conclusion, I guess that is what you would do.

 

[PA18]

Alrighty then tough guys. Put out a TA and let your pilots vote on it instead of withdrawing your JNC from the table and making the decision for your pilots.

The problem with that is, the PHL reps are probably right.

Jerry Glass knows the East pilot group better than their own mothers do. He knows exactly what he needs to offer, and not a penny more, to get that 50.1% Yes vote. And Glass uses FUD like Mariano Rivera uses the cut fastball. That's his "out pitch".

Funny, isn't it? Three years ago the East pilots and the majority of the MEC at the time couldn't wait to vote Yes on a concessionary contract.

Now they're saying there's no way in hell they will vote for a pay raise.

Prof. Hopkins will have a field day with that group if he ever decides to pen a Flying The Line, Part III.

 

[Junebug172]

The problem with that is, the PHL reps are probably right.

Jerry Glass knows the East pilot group better than their own mothers do. He knows exactly what he needs to offer, and not a penny more, to get that 50.1% Yes vote. And Glass uses FUD like Mariano Rivera uses the cut fastball. That's his "out pitch".

Funny, isn't it? Three years ago the East pilots and the majority of the MEC at the time couldn't wait to vote Yes on a concessionary contract.

Now they're saying there's no way in hell they will vote for a pay raise.

Prof. Hopkins will have a field day with that group if he ever decides to pen a Flying The Line, Part III.

You ain't kidding.

You couldn't make up the crap the east guys pull on a regular basis. Perpetually f'ing themselves at every opportunity, some people will think Hopkins' book is fiction!

 

[BottomFeeder]

TALK ABOUT FUD!
Now the East is moving to the next step in their strategy. Since their fear tactics, threats of decertification, threats of safety consequences to management and their customers, holding their fellow employees hostage, and deliberate destruction of the daily operation has failed to forward their agenda, they are now preparing to "manage" the fears of their membership in preparation of the eventual day of reckoning.

You see, the East MEC are really the fearful ones. They fear that the majority of East pilots are growing tired of the stalemate, and do not support their DOH at all cost mentality. Don't be fooled. They don't care about the wellbeing of the majority of East pilots.


It's time for rational minds, the silent majority, to step up and put the East MEC in their place.

Mr United Spin Master,

It is time for you put up or shut up!

Show us all the numbers or information to support your theory of the majority.

If the MAJORITY is as you state then why have there not been any recalls????????????????


Yes the UAL guys are right about you Mr. Know it All

 

[767jetz]

That's a funny take on it since the Captain Rep writing the council letter is North of 150 on the seniority list and was placed via DOH under the "St Nic" award. He has no dog in the fight and could easily sit on his laurels and collect a nice raise via a joint contract. Just maybe his motivation isn't self interest or selling out the pilots he represents for personal gain, but since you jump to that conclusion, I guess that is what you would do.

Once again, reading comprehension proves to be a challenge for the East.

Did you miss the part where I stated that they are afraid of losing their position of power??? Right now they are talking tough and maintaining their stranglehold on power. Their greatest fear is losing their MEC or LEC position and being thrown back to the line to fly with the "common folk."

Then there was the part about positioning themselves for the next corporate transaction they think will be in on the horizon. Having the Nicolau award overturned and getting DOH would strengthen their argument in an attempt to steal someone else's flying the next time around. So they very much do have a self interest regardless of where the award places them on the list.

Notice how they called the MDA pilots furloughees, until it served them better to call them active East employees.

 

[767jetz]

It is time for you put up or shut up!

I agree. Put a Joint Contract out for a vote. What are you scared of? Put up or shut up. Right?

If the MAJORITY is as you state then why have there not been any recalls????????????????

Because the MEC is keeping busy acting and sounding tough, while maintaining strict control of the message that gets out to the members. They didn't even want the rank and file to read the transcripts of the arbitration for themselves. They won't even let pilots talk to Prater without "supervision" or without being prepared or coached. Teenagers call it peer pressure. Adults call it censorship.

The only proof you need is to put a Joint Contract out for a vote. Either way the majority will get their way, and you'll have your proof. Isn't that what you and your like continue to advocate?? What do you have to lose? Or are you afraid that the majority of pilots will "speak up" against you with their vote? Hmmmmm.

 

[P51Pilot]

Once again, reading comprehension proves to be a challenge for the East.

Did you miss the part where I stated that they are afraid of losing their position of power??? Right now they are talking tough and maintaining their stranglehold on power. Their greatest fear is losing their MEC or LEC position and being thrown back to the line to fly with the "common folk."

Then there was the part about positioning themselves for the next corporate transaction they think will be in on the horizon. Having the Nicolau award overturned and getting DOH would strengthen their argument in an attempt to steal someone else's flying the next time around. So they very much do have a self interest regardless of where the award places them on the list.

Notice how they called the MDA pilots furloughees, until it served them better to call them active East employees.

You don't have a clue except to project your bitter, shallow, shortcomings on to those you don't even know. They are doing exactly what their membership wants and probably for many, "not talking tough enough." They aren't stealing anybodies seniority but protecting the flying that US Airways brought to the merger, for those flying it, and those furloughed as a means to save it.

If they weren't doing this, then the membership should have their head on a poll. ALPA has been a failure since 1978 as national union, and what should have happened in the past is now taking place.

It's a shame that you waste such time worrying about what happens here because of a pissing match with another poster. I'm sure you will come back with some quip about how you are concerned because this affects you. Of course, if you truly believed that, you wouldn't have walked through CAL, Easterns, NWA, COMAir, or anyone other pilots' picket line. It's all about you and it probably pisses the hell out of you to see a pilot group sticking together for a change.