AA short flight attendants

[graayfa]

I can answer two of you questions. To utilize all of the f/a''s during the holidays. That''s no EPT''s scheduled to be tought, no special assigment f/a''s to be used to man management possitions. This would be a way to have all of the f/a''s that are on payroll, to be available to fly. That would increase the head count durung the holidays to protect the operation. I know that there will be some f/a''s that cant work ie: light duty. But they could fill in for operational positions for management.

It''s all about working smart. Isn''t that part of the "Turn Around Plan".

 

[kirkpatrick]

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On 7/8/2003 3:13:37 PM buzzkill wrote:

So, we have one suggestion on the table. Do we have any others?

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No one is condoning sick leave abuse, but simple life experience shows us that it exists and will continue to exist. And it isn''t limited to the FA ranks; the most famous sickout of all time was AA pilots.

The company can''t be expected to plan around a deliberate sickout, but for AA to neglect to realize that many reserves could not fly into the following month because of being furloughed is an example of incompetence at its best.

And I can''t help but notice that the really damaging sickouts seem to occur when morale is low, usually because the company is stalling on a contract or abusing the employees in some way. This part IS under control of the company, and is one of AA''s great failings in my opinion.

In my short tenure at AA until my July 2nd furlough, I have to say I have never seen such hatred toward management by the rank and file in my entire life, and I don''t mean disgruntled TWA people. When everybody sees smoke, you can bet there''s a fire in there someplace. AA must realize that as management it''s their responsibility to treat their employees in a manner which will bring out employee loyalty. IBM, Fedex, Continental, Delta and others have done a much better job in this regard, so it cannot all be blamed on the fact that AA is a big company.


When I''m recalled, I''d like to see some progress in this area, OK?

MK

 

[AirLUVer]

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On 7/8/2003 1:56:55 PM Fly wrote:

BuzzKill Said:

3. Why do you assume that middle management has nothing to do? What a naive and uninformed statement.
_________________________________________________________________

The Fly is going to make an assumption here too (and yes, that''s not always wise)
Buzz is in Management

And Buzz is correct, management has tons of things to do on holidays,....geez, what were you guys thinking? They have presents to open, turkeys to carve, kids to listen to laugh, friends homes they need to visit, mistletoe to hang, etc, etc,etc......a seemingly endless list of things to do. Shame on anyone making such a naive and uninformed statement.

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Fly, keep in mind Buzz is talking about middle management, about the only managers that have holidays off are senior management and those that work in purely nonoperational areas i.e. accounting or payroll. Personally, I have not had a single Christmas off with my family since starting with AA except for when I was a reservations agent and they were giving people Timecard Leave/TL for entire weeks. I knew that going into my job as a scheduler that I would be unable to get the majority of holidays off. I don''t get double time for Holidays anymore, although I do accrue comptime for Holidays.

Unfortunately with the furloughs being always the most junior people the end of the month is a hard time for us in scheduling. It would really help if planning and allocations would split the furloughs up to the first and the fifteenth, but that costs money. Regarding this month change over and lack of reserves avail for fly-thru. From what I heard there were plenty of Internationals to help cover the domestic side, until the sick calls started increasing, and that is when the reassignments started. Contrary to FA Mikey and others, there are usually many extra reserves that are supposed to be available on holidays. If you happen to pull up an HI33/Reserve List before the month started, there were larger numbers of reserves avail for the first part of the month and then more balanced for the end of the month. But when sick calls and weather sessions deplete reserve banks you either reassign or cancel trips. Keep in mind DFW, ORD and STL all had afternoon storms last week and are still having them this week.

When holidays cooincide with the end of the month, there is a ton of open time. People bid themselves illegal and no one picks up make up. New Years Eve is always a horrible night to work in scheduling. Believe me I would much rather be out ringing in the new year with friends, than be at work for 12 hours straight reassigning until 3am on the 1st and coming back at 3pm.

 

[Fly]

Kirkpatrick said: In my short tenure at AA until my July 2nd furlough, I have to say I have never seen such hatred toward management by the rank and file in my entire life

________________________________________________________

Oh, come on over to UAL, we may be able to top it.



<Fly is jumping around the room chanting: "We Are #1>

 

[garfield a]

I have a question. When did it become and expectation to be bribed in to coming to going to work? I hear all this complaining about not being appreciated, not being paid over time, not having SOS cards… etc. I don’t know about the rest of you but I get paid to come to work. Where you people get off on “expecting†something more than your salary to in order to show up for work is beyond me. I used to get 2.5 time pay for holidays in Reservations and 1.5 for over time. I don’t any more. Sure it was nice to have. But times have changed and I don’t get it any more. I do not expect it. I do not need it to come to work. I get paid a salary. That is why I work. When times are good, you get more. Times are not good … incase any of you missed that memo. So when times are not good you have to give stuff up. That’s the way the game is played. Don’t like it? The go find a new game.

 

[flydcoop]

Fly,

Thanks for the laugh! I''ve never felt more bitter toward AA than I do right now.

On the surface, it seems as though UA made out better in concessions than we did, perhaps you can dispute this.

I can deal with about everything except FAA minimum rest, which I just experienced. We were delayed and 10 minutes from going illegal (which we weren''t even aware of).

We did not want to go illegal because we had tons of connections to Asia and Australia who would have been screwed. There was not a replacement crew available in DFW (yes, I was forced to STL). It was a total service failure on the part of AA.

However, after arriving at the hotel at 10:45pm and having a pickup at 0615am, we questioned why we should care when AA obviously doesn''t.

I don''t want to be THAT flight attendant. My motto is to leave all my personal issues on the ground. When we arrived at LAX at the end of a nearly 14 hour day I could barely read my announcements...I kept saying "Alcoholic devices" instead of electronic devices. I don''t feel very confident that I could have performed accordingly in an emergency.

I plan to continually write the FAA about minimum rest periods. I don''t ask for a 20hr+ layover/shopping frenzy...just adequate rest. I can''t afford a shopping frenzy, much less an apartment and a crashpad.

The next morning, the poor LAX agent asked me how I was and I said, "If Arpey was on this flight, I would gouge his eyes out and eviscerate him with my bare hands, I''m sure the APU/GPU would be working...can I get you something to drink?"

Whether you like it or not, management is the figurehead for the policies of this company. I did my time in management and quickly decided I could not play that game. I''m bitter but I''ve never regretted the path I took. My goal now is to make it a bit better...be it through changing FAA minimum rest or the next contract negotiations. AA was surprised at the last 98% strike vote??? Hang on for the next round because dollar values have been assigned (and undervalued) to certain concessions.

Geez, I''m venting. FYI, I spent 2 days on RDY RSV in STL...what was THAT about?

I can accept going to STL, I''m junior but for cryin'' out loud, what is happening? I have life decisions I need to make. I feel like I''m dangling in a freefall.

Just rambling,

Coop

p.s. excellent post, Kirkpatrick! You nailed it! Did anyone see the 15Jun "American Way" about rewarding loyal workers in small doses?" Does AA READ it''s own inflight magazine? Let''s see, holiday pay, SOS, AAcheiver''s points...hmmm. What''s my motivation again?

 

[garfield a]

OK Mikey,

Try and follow me on this ok?

You can not plan for the peaks. You can only plan for the average day. Just like no company keeps their holiday staff on year around, we can not keep enough reserves on call just to man for the holidays. If we did we would end up with the situation we had prior to the lay offs. Reserves system wide sitting at home with an average of 40-50 hours for the month. That is a colossal waste of money. I have already said that planning or who ever is in charge of the reserve head count may have screwed up for the month of June but 600 Holiday flu sick calls is what sunk it in July. The senior’s front loaded July with as many reserves as they could with out shooting us in the foot for the end of the month. We did not know you would be conducting a sick out on top of it. Our understanding is that it will last about another 2 days. Any one care to admit what’s going on? And yes it is a sick out. There is a WWW out there which several FA’s have referred to and the “holiday fluâ€￾ always ends a day or 2 after the actual holiday.

No, it is not a “generalizationâ€￾. It is simple averages. If the average sick count is “Xâ€￾ for 99% of the year and all of sudden there are an extra (in this case 600) “Zâ€￾ Fa’s on the sick list and “Zâ€￾ sick disappear after a few days then you have one of 2 possibilities. 1. There is a huge epidemic that only affects FA’s during the holidays or, 2. There are 600 FA’s who are lying through their teeth and abusing the sick policy. It’s the simple law of averages. It has happened every single holiday I have work for scheduling. You can set your calendar by it.

No, if the sick policy is not enforced, it will not change. And thanks for proving my point by the way.

Sorry Charlie, since companies have been working people on the holidays, people have been calling in. Nothing is going to change that.

You just admitted that you are calling in sick because of the holidays. Has nothing to do with being sick. I am held accountable for my sick time. If I call in (used to be 3 times) more than 2 times I am considered “unmanagedâ€￾. I will have a discussion with my manager, if a pattern is detected, you will either need to provide medical documentation or face corrective action up to and including termination. I don’t imagine you want to have that in your contract huh? Nah, did not think so.

Buzz, it’s a one way door for them. They #### and moan when they have to work 4 legs a day but they never questioned getting paid 9.30 for a 2 leg 2 day. It’s unethical and he admitted as much and they have no intention of being held accountable. They will call in sick before a VC, just after a VC. They call in sick when we ask them where they are 40 min prior to dept and we wake them up in bed because the over slept or forgot they had a trip. Commuters will call in sick when they cannot get to base. They should be put on 1st and 2nd steps, and then they should be terminated. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

TWAnr, I don’t have the sick policy in front of me but I could swear that there is a part in there about sick abuse and not calling in sick when you are not sick. Whether it is draconian or not is irrelevant, you agreed to it when you hired on as did everyone else. You agreed to your contract that was in effect at the time. If you did not like the compensation, then you should have chosen a different (“youâ€￾ being all employees). I have been operational for my entire career with AA. I have never had the sonority to pull X-mass or New years off yet. I deal with it. You people need to deal with it as well. If you want the “perksâ€￾ that go with management, then go into management.

 

[flydcoop]

garfield,

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I''m saying my motivation in general. I worked on 04Jul and sat RDY for 2 days.

It''s hard for me to be "rah-rah" on minimum rest...I''m talking about being so freakin'' tired I was cross-eyed. I don''t yell at Crew Sked, you have a job to do as do I. Amazingly, the only holiday I ever had off was New Year''s 1999. I still don''t know how that happened. I don''t go home for the holidays because 1) I''m not from a holiday sort of family and 2) where I''m from is a harsh commuter base...why bother?

Time will tell if those on the STL sick list are actually quitting. It would provide me with a nice little buffer, actually.

All I''m saying is that if AA doesn''t care if I have adequate rest, why should I care so much if I''m about to go illegal? Hello! We are trying to keep passengers coming back and brand-loyal. I do like that Arpey did not take a pay-raise and threw some bags (how he didn''t get a "form one" is beyond me...must have been pure shock at the DFW TWU local). Now, I implore him to just unexpectedly show up at an airport and see what''s going on. Whenever upper management is on a plane, EVERYTHING is perfect. This is not day-to-day operations. This is not what our most coveted passengers often experience.

I don''t claim to be a financial wizard, but I do know what it is to hear, "I''ll never fly this "bleeping" airline again."

Coop

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 7/8/2003 135 PM buzzkill wrote:


I think you are wrong on the theft issue. Sick time is accrued, but is only to be used when an employee is sick. Just because you have "earned" sick time, doesn''t mean that it is extra vacation.

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Lucky DC got all his accrued sick time added in to the 8 million after taxes he got to leave.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 7/8/2003 11:41:12 AM buzzkill wrote:

I will ask this question again; How could AA have planned for this known (unethical) increase in absence? What solutions do you have, and how much does AA have to pay for your solutions to accommodate those who are stealing from the company?


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You make the reserve list slightly larger and you keep more people available on the days you know they will be most needed. Thats how.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 7/8/2003 11:35:05 AM buzzkill wrote:

I agree that all the cases you mention are stealing, some are bigger thefts than others, and I don''t condone any of them. If you have 500 or so f/a''s abusing sick days for 10 holidays a year, my very simple math has this theft up to about $5M per year. I find it interesting that some of the same people who were so upset about Carty''s dishonesty and stealing from the employees can condone abuse of sick time that also equals a sizable sum of money.

So what is my solution? I think that AA should make an example out of as many f/a''s as it can prove abused their sick time and fire them. If that doesn''t work, AA should consider hiring an extra 500 f/a''s, but reduce the compensation of the remaining f/a''s to make this move a zero dollar decision. It seems to me that what many f/a''s really want is more time off, which could have been negotiated in lieu of compensation. Or better yet, the APFA could come up with a solution, because this really is a problem that flight attendants should police, because you are only making your own lives more difficult.

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Is it the unions job to get people to come to work? If the company makes little to no effort why should they? Interesting math you use. I never knew 500 of us could make 5 million in 10 days. Wow, I am getting the short end in my pay stub. Who are these people who you believe call in to spend quality time with the family on Presidents day and what else halloween?

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 10:15:43 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 7/8/2003 11:35:05 AM buzzkill wrote:

I agree that all the cases you mention are stealing, some are bigger thefts than others, and I don''t condone any of them. If you have 500 or so f/a''s abusing sick days for 10 holidays a year, my very simple math has this theft up to about $5M per year. I find it interesting that some of the same people who were so upset about Carty''s dishonesty and stealing from the employees can condone abuse of sick time that also equals a sizable sum of money.

So what is my solution? I think that AA should make an example out of as many f/a''s as it can prove abused their sick time and fire them. If that doesn''t work, AA should consider hiring an extra 500 f/a''s, but reduce the compensation of the remaining f/a''s to make this move a zero dollar decision. It seems to me that what many f/a''s really want is more time off, which could have been negotiated in lieu of compensation. Or better yet, the APFA could come up with a solution, because this really is a problem that flight attendants should police, because you are only making your own lives more difficult.

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Is it the unions job to get people to come to work? If the company makes little to no effort why should they? Interesting math you use. I never knew 500 of us could make 5 million in 10 days. Wow, I am getting the short end in my pay stub. Who are these people who you believe call in to spend quality time with the family on Presidents day and what else halloween?

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Since the f/a''s are the ones who are most affected by your own people calling in sick, it makes sense that you would all get together and find a solution.

As far as my math, you have to count more than just the 10 Holidays. Do you think that f/a''s only called in sick for July 4?

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 10:18:35 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 7/8/2003 11:41:12 AM buzzkill wrote:

I will ask this question again; How could AA have planned for this known (unethical) increase in absence? What solutions do you have, and how much does AA have to pay for your solutions to accommodate those who are stealing from the company?


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You make the reserve list slightly larger and you keep more people available on the days you know they will be most needed. Thats how.

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How much does this cost? I really don't know, so please tell me.

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 1032 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 7/8/2003 135 PM buzzkill wrote:


I think you are wrong on the theft issue. Sick time is accrued, but is only to be used when an employee is sick. Just because you have &quot;earned&quot; sick time, doesn''t mean that it is extra vacation.

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Lucky DC got all his accrued sick time added in to the 8 million after taxes he got to leave.

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Please show me where you found this info. I looked in several news articles on the subject, but couldn''t find it. I did find the following quote in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, which does not mention him getting accrued sick time, only accrued vacation time.

What Carty will get

• A $13.5 million payment from the supplemental executive retirement plan, or $8.2 million after taxes.

• $79,000 annually from the airline''s defined- benefit pension plan.

• Shares of stock and stock options he earned.

• Full retiree health and travel benefits.

 

[TWAnr]

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On 7/9/2003 3:49:51 PM garfield a wrote:

I see that FA Mikey and TWAnr have not responded to anything I posted. I find that humorous.

TWAnr, where does it say that sick time is owned by the FA? I have looked though the contract and I cannot find it. It is my understanding that you are a rep of the union and I find it sad that you seem to have no problem with the unethical behavior of FA’s in your union. Is that how you practice criminal law as well?

Sick time, I would think by definition, is to be use when you are sick. If it was intended for other use by the employee, they would have called it something else, perhaps something like “use it when ever you don’t want to go to work timeâ€￾. But, alas they did not. I find it very revealing that a union rep does not care about abuse in her own house and yet raises hell when the CEO does something out of the public eye, lies about it and then gets caught.

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Garfield,

Where did you get the idea that I am a union rep? I have never ever made such a claim. Those who are familiar with my postings know better than that.

Sick pay is part of the employees’ compensation package. It is earned by and belongs to the employee, not the company; however, there are restrictions on using it. My employer, a governmental agency, pays it off at 50% on the dollar upon retirement or separation. Even American Airlines paid off the accumulated sick leave of those who were recently laid off, albeit at a much lower hourly rate than regular pay for actual work hours. Most enlightened states labor codes regulate how it can be used and whether it must be paid off upon termination of employment. State laws preempt company policies and collective bargaining agreements.

For the record, I never wrote that I supported sick leave abuse. In certain situations, it is unethical and immoral and punishes coworkers. That however, does not make it illegal. All I took issue with you is your opinion that it was theft. It is not.

And yes, I am still of the opinion, based on the experience of many I know, that AA's attendance program, which is based in a total lack of trust and respect, is primitive and draconian in comparison to the policies of most other employers.
End of discussion.