AA short flight attendants

[FA Mikey]

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On 7/8/2003 9:52:26 AM buzzkill wrote:


How do you propose planning for such a known increase in unethical absences? Yes, AA could have delayed the furloughs of 500 or so f/a''s to account for the lack of ethics that some f/a''s apparently have, but that probably would have cost another $500,000. If you prefer, AA could keep an extra 500 f/a''s on full-time. If you figure that each f/a costs the company $40,000/year (just guessing here, but this includes salary, benefits, training, etc.), the cost for this decision is $20 Million dollars per year.

The only reason I bother responding to this is that it seems silly to blame anybody except the people who are behaving unethically. You would think that f/a''s would be more interested in canning those who steal from the company than asking the company that the f/a''s just helped to bail out to spend more money on this issue. It also seems that if AA spends extra money to accommodate unethical behavior, it only encourages such behavior.

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We are also talking about a compny who furloughed and then found they had only 3 reserves for NY and only 50 in ORD. That is part of the patteren of lack of planning we see all to often here.

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 11:17:35 AM FA Mikey wrote:

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On 7/8/2003 1133 AM buzzkill wrote:


So when f/a''s steal from the company, it is okay? Is that your position?

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Can you name a place where this is not the case. It is stealing if you are not sick, and call in. So is using the copy machine in the office for personal use. So is using company provided tools like pens pencils and paper that ends up in so many office peoples homes. There is simply a level of this happening in every work place in every company. If you have a solution I would love to hear how you plan to stop theft on every level, in every company.

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I agree that all the cases you mention are stealing, some are bigger thefts than others, and I don''t condone any of them. If you have 500 or so f/a''s abusing sick days for 10 holidays a year, my very simple math has this theft up to about $5M per year. I find it interesting that some of the same people who were so upset about Carty''s dishonesty and stealing from the employees can condone abuse of sick time that also equals a sizable sum of money.

So what is my solution? I think that AA should make an example out of as many f/a''s as it can prove abused their sick time and fire them. If that doesn''t work, AA should consider hiring an extra 500 f/a''s, but reduce the compensation of the remaining f/a''s to make this move a zero dollar decision. It seems to me that what many f/a''s really want is more time off, which could have been negotiated in lieu of compensation. Or better yet, the APFA could come up with a solution, because this really is a problem that flight attendants should police, because you are only making your own lives more difficult.

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 945 AM FA Mikey wrote:

To not plan for a known increase in absence in incompetent. I don''t think it should be unilaterally accepted. What else can you do? They have tried everything.

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I will ask this question again; How could AA have planned for this known (unethical) increase in absence? What solutions do you have, and how much does AA have to pay for your solutions to accommodate those who are stealing from the company?

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 11:00:56 AM graayfa wrote:

The Holiday sick calls will continue, just look back at the history. The company has tried everything from prizes to extra pay, but the extra pay was only here for a short time, then taken away, but not every holiday was given to us with pay. Other work group''s were given the incetive to come to work with time-and-a-half, some times double-time-and-a-half! The f/a''s only got to see this for a year or so, but only on limited holidays!
Management get''s 10 paid holidays a year under the new agreement! The problem of short f/a''s is not going to go away, it will be worse Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.
I have found the solution to the problem! We are supposed to all share the pain in the hard times, well here they are! Flight service managers can all be on "Reserve" to cover the "Operational Need". This is part of the job, no one is guarteed to have the holidays off because we are a 24hr operation. This will make some mad, but it goes with the job. Debbie Carvatta (ord base mgr) comes to work every christmas day, in unifourm, and tries to meet every crew. Where are the other managers through out the system? Are they better then her? How about "The ivory tower" are they better then the rest of us?
Sorry had a little of a rant going on! The company needs to get back to the basics on how to treat the "work force" in good times and bad!




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So when f/a''s steal from the company, it is okay? Is that your position?

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 7/8/2003 1133 AM buzzkill wrote:


So when f/a''s steal from the company, it is okay? Is that your position?

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Can you name a place where this is not the case. It is stealing if you are not sick, and call in. So is using the copy machine in the office for personal use. So is using company provided tools like pens pencils and paper that ends up in so many office peoples homes. There is simply a level of this happening in every work place in every company. If you have a solution I would love to hear how you plan to stop theft on every level, in every company.

 

[graayfa]

The Holiday sick calls will continue, just look back at the history. The company has tried everything from prizes to extra pay, but the extra pay was only here for a short time, then taken away, but not every holiday was given to us with pay. Other work group''s were given the incetive to come to work with time-and-a-half, some times double-time-and-a-half! The f/a''s only got to see this for a year or so, but only on limited holidays!
Management get''s 10 paid holidays a year under the new agreement! The problem of short f/a''s is not going to go away, it will be worse Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.
I have found the solution to the problem! We are supposed to all share the pain in the hard times, well here they are! Flight service managers can all be on "Reserve" to cover the "Operational Need". This is part of the job, no one is guarteed to have the holidays off because we are a 24hr operation. This will make some mad, but it goes with the job. Debbie Carvatta (ord base mgr) comes to work every christmas day, in unifourm, and tries to meet every crew. Where are the other managers through out the system? Are they better then her? How about "The ivory tower" are they better then the rest of us?
Sorry had a little of a rant going on! The company needs to get back to the basics on how to treat the "work force" in good times and bad!

 

[TWAnr]

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On 7/8/2003 11:41:12 AM buzzkill wrote:

I will ask this question again; How could AA have planned for this known (unethical) increase in absence? What solutions do you have, and how much does AA have to pay for your solutions to accommodate those who are stealing from the company?

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Using sick time, when not sick, may be unethical but it is not theft. Sick time is earned, at a specified rate per the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and is a part of the employee's compensation package. It is owned by the employee, not the employer.

American Airlines draconian attendance policy and prolific attendance managers do weed out the worse abusers.

Regardless of whether there was abuse, having only three reserves available in New York and fifty in Chicago is poor planning, pure and simple, even in normal times.

Isn't it time to go and play Gotcha! with some poor flight attendant or pilot enjoying a day off thousands of miles away from their base?

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 12:25:48 PM TWAnr wrote:

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On 7/8/2003 11:41:12 AM buzzkill wrote:

I will ask this question again;  How could AA have planned for this known (unethical) increase in absence? What solutions do you have, and how much does AA have to pay for your solutions to accommodate those who are stealing from the company?

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Using sick time, when not sick, may be unethical but it is not theft. Sick time is earned, at a specified rate per the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and is a part of the employee''s compensation package. It is owned by the employee, not the employer.

American Airlines draconian attendance policy and prolific attendance managers do weed out the worse abusers.

Regardless of whether there was abuse, having only three reserves available in New York and fifty in Chicago is poor planning, pure and simple, even in normal times.

Isn''t it time to go and play Gotcha! with some poor flight attendant or pilot enjoying a day off thousands of miles away from their base?

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I think you are wrong on the theft issue. Sick time is accrued, but is only to be used when an employee is sick. Just because you have "earned" sick time, doesn''t mean that it is extra vacation.

 

[graayfa]

Buzkill
You are not going to reduce sick calls. There always are going to be individuals who are going to call in sick during the holidays. I was responding on how the company could have planned for this. The plan is simple, management will have to fill the void! This has been done before, on the holidays. They were, once again out of touch with the work force. You can only push people so far before they think they have the right to take matters into their own hands. I dont agree with it, but I cannot blame people for feeling the way they do.
I worked my flight short, but that doesn''t mean that eveyone will feel the same way. No, I wasn''t upset with people that call in sick, that is their right! Who''s to say they were not sick. That is the job of the Attendance Police. This way they can make it look like they are needed, just like all of the other middle management that we have here. To many of them, make them work!

 

[TWAnr]

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On 7/8/2003 135 PM buzzkill wrote:

I think you are wrong on the theft issue.

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Now we are talking about my area of expertise. I practice criminal law for a living. This is the definition of Theft:

theft

Old English thiefth

: "larceny"

broadly
: a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent
Note: Theft commonly encompasses by statute a variety of forms of stealing formerly treated as distinct crimes.

[url="http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/results.pl?co=www.findlaw.com&topic=31/31ffe2069b9351940b85482a6746e3c3"]http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/r...b85482a6746e3c3[/URL]

The key is "of another". Sick time is accrued pursuant to the provisions of the collective bargaining agreement and it belongs to the employee.

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 127 PM graayfa wrote:

Buzkill
You are not going to reduce sick calls. There always are going to be individuals who are going to call in sick during the holidays. I was responding on how the company could have planned for this. The plan is simple, management will have to fill the void! This has been done before, on the holidays. They were, once again out of touch with the work force. You can only push people so far before they think they have the right to take matters into their own hands. I dont agree with it, but I cannot blame people for feeling the way they do.
I worked my flight short, but that doesn''t mean that eveyone will feel the same way. No, I wasn''t upset with people that call in sick, that is their right! Who''s to say they were not sick. That is the job of the Attendance Police. This way they can make it look like they are needed, just like all of the other middle management that we have here. To many of them, make them work!

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1. It is not "their right" to call in sick when they are not sick.
2. To pretend that people tend to legitimately take ill on Holidays may get you a job as the APA spokesperson, but you don''t really believe it, do you? I don''t think the judge bought it when the pilots had their Reno flu.
3. Why do you assume that middle management has nothing to do? What a naive and uninformed statement. However, it is consistent with how many discussions go on this board - when all arguments fail, blame management or claim that management does nothing. It''s a good way to avoid the issue at hand.
4. I suppose you could count on management to "fill the void". But wouldn''t you be better off as a group of f/a''s to rid yourself of unethical colleagues who only make your Holidays harder?
5. Is the culture among f/a''s one of acceptance of using sick time for anything other than illness?

 

[Fly]

Just reading Jane Allen''s latest update for us lucky f/a''s over at UAL (you guys remember ol'' Jane, right? ) Well, here is the letter:

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....ad nauseum....and then the last paragraph:
*******************************************************

Although every retiring employee has distinguished him or herself in one way or another over the years, I must make special note of Flora Fergusen, a flight attendant based in London. Flora will retire with 42 years of service and a record of perfect dependability. Flora, for more than four decades you''ve demonstrated your pride in your job. You are an inspiration to us all, and we promise to take good care of your company when you go.

Fly safely and have a great week.
*********************************************************

Fly does a little calculation:

960 hours x $46/hr = $44,160 !!!!!!

Ok, I''m NOT impressed with Flora, I''m thinking SUCKER!!!!!!!

 

[Fly]

BuzzKill Said:

3. Why do you assume that middle management has nothing to do? What a naive and uninformed statement.
_________________________________________________________________

The Fly is going to make an assumption here too (and yes, that''s not always wise)
Buzz is in Management

And Buzz is correct, management has tons of things to do on holidays,....geez, what were you guys thinking? They have presents to open, turkeys to carve, kids to listen to laugh, friends homes they need to visit, mistletoe to hang, etc, etc,etc......a seemingly endless list of things to do. Shame on anyone making such a naive and uninformed statement.

 

[graayfa]

Buzkill
you are missing the point! I do not condone calling in sick. I have been in management here and at my previous employer. Let''s not forget that management is not perfect! They work the system just like the f/a''s do, only they can cover it up. We still have a lot of management waste here! I see it every day! Why do we still have special assignment f/a''s working in the MOD''s office in ORD when the flight services managers could cover any positions that need to be filled! If we are comming up on a holiday, we should not have f/a''s pulled from their flying to cover office positions. That is managements responsiblity! This happens every month in ORD! I know for a fact that managers get their nails done and see family and friends off for nonrev. They seem to have an abundance of comptime! That is a joke! Have management badge in of sign in on the computers like f/a''s do and see what happens to comptime. Dont get me started on leaving early!


I''m am not trying to blame middle mangement for the problems that we have now, nor am I trying to blame upper management. This is not the time to assign blame. It is the time to fix the problem! People lead by example, and I dont see a lot of management setting good examples! No not all of mangement, just a few, just like the f/a''s.

 

[buzzkill]

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On 7/8/2003 2:38:53 PM graayfa wrote:

Buzkill
you are missing the point! I do not condone calling in sick. I have been in management here and at my previous employer. Let''s not forget that management is not perfect! They work the system just like the f/a''s do, only they can cover it up. We still have a lot of management waste here! I see it every day! Why do we still have special assignment f/a''s working in the MOD''s office in ORD when the flight services managers could cover any positions that need to be filled! If we are comming up on a holiday, we should not have f/a''s pulled from their flying to cover office positions. That is managements responsiblity! This happens every month in ORD! I know for a fact that managers get their nails done and see family and friends off for nonrev. They seem to have an abundance of comptime! That is a joke! Have management badge in of sign in on the computers like f/a''s do and see what happens to comptime. Dont get me started on leaving early!


I''m am not trying to blame middle mangement for the problems that we have now, nor am I trying to blame upper management. This is not the time to assign blame. It is the time to fix the problem! People lead by example, and I dont see a lot of management setting good examples! No not all of mangement, just a few, just like the f/a''s.

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I agree that there are a few in any group, including management and f/a''s who are bad apples. Your previous statement seemed to paint with a very broad brush.

The real issue at hand as I see it goes like this:
1) There was a complaint that AA did not and does not plan accordingly for operational coverage on holidays.
2) Someone (I think Garfield) ranted about the high volume of sick time by f/a''s at holidays driving the problem.
3) FAMikey stated that, "To not plan for a known increase in absence in incompetent. I don''t think it should be unilaterally accepted."
4) I am asking what kind of planning could be done to plan for the holiday spike in illnesses.
5) Graayfa suggests that management should fill the void on holidays.

So, we have one suggestion on the table. Do we have any others?