AA and APFA expidite talks

[jimntx]

i thought texaco got split up by Shell and Chevron.

No. Years before the Chevron buyout, Texaco, Shell, and Aramco had a joint venture called Star Enterprise. It was basically the "west of the Mississippi" Marketing and Refining parts of Texaco and Shell with mucho dinero invested from Aramco.

Because the 3 all owned equal shares (i.e., no one was in charge), it didn't succeed. IIRC (this was after I left Texaco in 1995), Shell ended up with parts that used to belong to Texaco in a buyout. The joke was that through an unfortunate oversight by Texaco legal department Shell "owned" the Texaco Star logo for several years following the split up. The Texaco Star was one of the oldest company logos in existence that was still in continual use.

Everything else under the Texaco name was bought by Chevron. For awhile the official company name was changed to ChevronTexaco, but later shortened to just Chevron again. During the long name period a friend of mine who still worked there corrected me one day when I said something about ChevronTexaco. She said, "Jim, you are mispronouncing the name of the company. The Texaco is silent."

 

[eolesen]

And, you know for a fact that the failure of the talks is due to union shortsightedness, how?

AA has traditionally asked for the first-born from each family in return for a $.25/hr raise. Then they refuse to negotiate to something more acceptable. It is to their advantage to drag out the negotiations as long as possible forcing the f/as to work under the old contract until they have no other choice--i.e., when the union asks the NMB to institute binding arbitration or to be released from the negotiations. Then and only then does AA get serious about bargaining.

Depends on what you want to call shortsightedness. Status quo is probably a better option for the time being.

From my view in the cheap seats, the airline(s) has(have) most of the bargaining power right now because the economy sucks, there's no doubt about downsizings and capacity being pulled out, and there's little to no hope of profits for a year or three for all but one or two carriers (WN and ALGT) who've already eecked out as much on the productivity scale as is humanely possible.

To think that any union is going to see raises without some serious concessions is ludicrous. The industry saw what happened the last time that happened with UA's unions sans AFA and DL's pilots. I don't think history will be repeating itself.

 

[frontline]

Depends on what you want to call shortsightedness. Status quo is probably a better option for the time being.

From my view in the cheap seats, the airline(s) has(have) most of the bargaining power right now because the economy sucks, there's no doubt about downsizings and capacity being pulled out, and there's little to no hope of profits for a year or three for all but one or two carriers (WN and ALGT) who've already eecked out as much on the productivity scale as is humanely possible.

To think that any union is going to see raises without some serious concessions is ludicrous. The industry saw what happened the last time that happened with UA's unions sans AFA and DL's pilots. I don't think history will be repeating itself.

Sad but probably true. TWU needs to bring a substantive proposal to us instead of screwing around keeping things "secret". I want to see everything on the table: what AA is offering to give and what it expects in return.

I am of the opinion that now is not the same for snap back or other outrageous demands, but I want the opportunity to review and vote on something. I'm sure the FAs feel the same way.

 

[AAStew]

As a F/A, I would rather maintain status quo. It is stupid to even go into negotiations at the moment. We will only end up losing even more. The best deal for the APFA would be to hem and haw for the next two years.....
There is no way we will get anything right now...

The pilots had their chance when they had early starters during the good months, they blew it. I would rather just sit back and wait.

 

[BigBangTheory]

As a F/A, I would rather maintain status quo.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

As a F/A, I would rather maintain status quo. It is stupid to even go into negotiations at the moment. We will only end up losing even more. The best deal for the APFA would be to hem and haw for the next two years.....
There is no way we will get anything right now...

The pilots had their chance when they had early starters during the good months, they blew it. I would rather just sit back and wait.

I can certainly understand your position. I don't envy any of the labor groups right now in trying to negotiate. In some respects the union leadership (mostly APA, but APFA and TWU to a lesser extent) have talked themselves into a corner by planting ideas like "snap back" into members' heads. They will become a victim of their own propaganda in the end. It would be one thing if AA were raking in hundreds of millions a quarter, but with the company in survival mode I think it's unlikely to give much to any of the three groups.

 

[Jackrla]

Let's assume that AA needs relief in their labor agreements. There seems to be two ways for management to force a resolution - an uncertain resolution at that: bankruptcy court or for them to get a release from mediation, go to a PEB and try to get favorable recommendations, and when and, if the union(s) reject(s) the recommendations, seek congressional intervention (not an uncommon course of action with the rails). Otherwise, it seems they need voluntary agreements. It's risky business to try either but desperate times often cause desperate actions. The comments here demonstrate the difficulty in reaching any voluntary agreement. Not a good situation for anyone.

 

[FA Mikey]

an agreement with any of the unions is still years of negotiations away.

 

[Jackrla]

Three factors come into play:
1. Time
2. Market conditions.
3. Who Knows What Evil Lurks in the Hearts of Men?

 

[Mrs. McFly]

Depends on what you want to call shortsightedness. Status quo is probably a better option for the time being.

From my view in the cheap seats, the airline(s) has(have) most of the bargaining power right now because the economy sucks, there's no doubt about downsizings and capacity being pulled out, and there's little to no hope of profits for a year or three for all but one or two carriers (WN and ALGT) who've already eecked out as much on the productivity scale as is humanely possible.

To think that any union is going to see raises without some serious concessions is ludicrous. The industry saw what happened the last time that happened with UA's unions sans AFA and DL's pilots. I don't think history will be repeating itself.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Productivity is the name of the game now, and all of AA workgroups need to acknowledge this and in turn, use it to their advantage when negotiating, whenever that might be. I think the company would be more willing to offer up better terms if there is an agreement to raise productivity. It has been a win, win situation for those at WN.

 

[eolesen]

it was win-win at WN but now Herb is gone, and the founder's honeymoon is over. Just look at the last round of FA negotiations.....

 

[AAflygirl]

it was win-win at WN but now Herb is gone, and the founder's honeymoon is over. Just look at the last round of FA negotiations.....

Not to mention that Southwest employees are in for a rude awakening when their fuel hedges expire.