A WINDFALL HAS TAKEN PLACE.

[CactusFlyr]

Now for the record, my comment on gas and matches is in response to the east ultimatum's of give us or else!! Now really what kind of response were you expecting?? [/quote]


I will bring the hot dogs and marshmallows.

 

[AWA320]

Now for the record, my comment on gas and matches is in response to the east ultimatum's of give us or else!! Now really what kind of response were you expecting??
I will bring the hot dogs and marshmallows.

OOOOOK!!!! Back to my weekend.

 

[N924PS]

There's lots to see, if you read the entire document.

Specifically:

Click on Item 1 B and notice AWA's cash balance of 108 Million.

Most enlightening are pages 32 thru 38 which specifically describe AWA's precarious financial condition.

Not exactly what was presented to Nocolau by the AWA Merger Committee.

 

[smoot4208]

East saved West's ass= = = = =WINDFALL West~without a merger, west would have no jobs

 

[isthisok]

Not to defend the folks out west but US Airways days were numbered too.

Not being a lawyer I'm not sure of this but failure to disclose material facts, such as "Project Zanizbar" or the SEC docs referred to above can in many cases be enough to overturn a ruling.

Piney........didn't you read that AWA320 says that Zanzibar was bull! If he said it it's true. Both of us were in trouble but this crap about who saved who is bull! I guess if you say it long enough it becomes fact!

 

[WCT]

I just wish AWA and US would of mergered right after 9-11, then maybe there wouldn't be this who saved "who" crap!!!! Things would probably came out a lot differently, and this company would already put United and maybe even Delta out of business, who knows?? The bottom line is we saved each other. HP could no longer compete with a losey two bases in the West, we'll Southwest kept running us ragged with competition. We have always tried to be the better SWA, but our days were numbered unless we grew the company to what has become today. Like I said, I wish it would of happened earlier. WE ARE a Better airline, and hopefully a better future will prevail! And I am not drinking the company Kool-aid either, I am just a flight attendant happy to have a job!

 

[A320 Driver]

I just wish AWA and US would of mergered right after 9-11, then maybe there wouldn't be this who saved "who" crap!!!! Things would probably came out a lot differently, and this company would already put United and maybe even Delta out of business, who knows?? The bottom line is we saved each other. HP could no longer compete with a losey two bases in the West, we'll Southwest kept running us ragged with competition. We have always tried to be the better SWA, but our days were numbered unless we grew the company to what has become today. Like I said, I wish it would of happened earlier. WE ARE a Better airline, and hopefully a better future will prevail! And I am not drinking the company Kool-aid either, I am just a flight attendant happy to have a job!

I agree, the "who saved who" argument IS crap. It is clear to me from the SEC filings and all of this info that has recently come to light that both companies needed each other to survive. The problem is, this info was sufficiently hidden during the seniority arbitration to the point that the arbitrator bit into the argument that East was toast and had NO career expectations. Now, we have those who would argue that the filings were wrong or mis-interpreted...self serving to say the least.

This airline, it's management and employees should be focused on improving our operation and securing our futures, but we are bogged down with this infighting between employee groups and management's foot dragging with the contract talks. We need leadership NOW! The problem is, we have a senior management with no vested interest in the long term viability of the company. Their pockets are FULL and no matter what happens to USAirways, their pockets will STAY FULL.

Management is playing "chicken" with all our futures. THAT should be the main cause of concern amoung U employees.


A320 Driver B)

 

[nycbusdriver]

The top 517 EAST pilots that's roughly 10% receive DOH integration!! Windfall EAST

Try as I might, I cannot figure out how this is a windfall for me (seniority in the low 300's.)

My job is exactly the same.

My career expectations are exactly the same.

My rate of advancement is exactly the same (the same older farts must still retire in order for me to move up.)

My pay is still exactly the same (and now might even stay the same abysmal rate until LOA 93 and the current east contract becomes amendable in several more years.)

Sure, now I'm about 7% from the top of the list, rather than 10%. But that's akin to departing from a 10,000 foot runway at the intersection that leaves you 7,000 feet to roll. What good is the 3,000 feet behind you?

 

[Bear96]

The problem is, this info was sufficiently hidden during the seniority arbitration

Are you saying the East negotiators failed to bring this up and point it out to the arbitrators?

Have they explained why?

 

[A320 Driver]

Are you saying the East negotiators failed to bring this up and point it out to the arbitrators?

Have they explained why?

It doesn't appear they had the info.

A320 Driver B)

 

[Bear96]

It doesn't appear they had the info.

A320 Driver B)

That doesn't answer my question.

If the East negotiators felt this was pertinent info, why didn't they bring it up?

 

[Bear96]

So if AWA ALPS or the company witheld pertinent information regarding the financial condition of AWA, wouldn't that be grounds to overturn the Award?

First, what "pertinent information about the financial condition of AWA" are you talking about? What smoking-gun type of document are you envisioning? The financial condition of being profitable and hiring? Or the speculation that some day, maybe, AWA would lose money without a merger and would be more successful long-term with a merger? The East and the arbitrators could speculate on that just as much as the West.

Second, it was not the West's obligation to point out weaknesses in its position. In an arbitration, each side has the obligation to point out its own strengths and the weaknesses in the other side's position. So any "pertinent information" you are referring to that would have helped the East's cause would have been the East's responsibility to bring up, not the West's, and certainly not the company's, as the company was not involved in this process at all.

I realize that this is murky waters but if AWA ALPA knowingly witheld relevent information could this not be a criminal matter as well?

Please. Under what criminal statute? Why are you putting the onus on the West to bring it up? What information do you think West's ALPA had that East's didn't?

What type od Discovery is allowed during an arbitration case?

That depends on what the parties agreed to as spelled out in the agreement to arbitrate. Generally it is some sort of limited or expedited discovery that is considerably less extensive than in traditional litigation. In any case, here you seem to be talking about some sort of internal HP financial data that, if it even existed at all, West ALPA probably didn't have.

Conversely if US ALPA failed to perform proper due diligence doesn't that expose US ALPA to a Breech of Fiduciary Responsibility action by the pilots themselves? Assuming they can prove they were damaged.

Now you're getting it! I'm not sure it rises quite to the level of a FD breach, but it amazes me people here are anxious to blame the West for what would have been, if anything, a duty and ommission on the East's part.

My guess, however, is that the East negotiators did indeed bring "it" up, and "it" was considered along with all the other factors. The fact that at some point in the speculative future it would have been in HP's best interests to merge would have been balanced with the fact that on the eve of the merger HP was profitable and hiring while U was most likely on the verge of an imminent shutdown and had hundreds if not thousands on furlough. The arbitrators looked at the data and concluded that, relative to the HP pilots, the U pilots didn't have much of a future without the merger.

I will now pause so 700UW can post that years-old Washington Post article he always posts whenever someone points out that U's prosepcts were less-than-dim on the eve of the merger. I don't think it has yet been posted in this thread, and he likes to make sure every thread has it.

 

[Barberpole]

If ALPA merger policy still used the words "date of hire", and if this merger went DOH with conditions and restrictions that protect position, job, etc, - I don't think this divide would exist between the two pilot groups.

DOH is fair, equitable and easily quantifiable. What we have in merger policy language now is smoke and mirrors.
Anyway, its low tide, time for a run on the beach.

You are smoking crack if you don't think there would be any divide with DOH even with conditions and restrictions. I would have been looking at 1800 furloughees coming in senior to me. Pilots who would have NEVER been recalled if it wasn't for AWA. My upgrade would have gone from 7 years to likely 20 years...You can talk about project Zanzibar or project Pull MY Finger or whatever but the fact of the matter is you were knocking on the door of liquidation and we had an outside chance of restructuring. I bet you won't be able to find an airline operating in the US that doesn't have a CH 11 contingency plan...

But if it had gone DOH and I had been screwed I would have bitched and whined and probably left for greener pastures. But I would NOT be threatening to burn the entire airline down and flush 40000 or so jobs down the toilet because i didn't get what i wanted. Have some class guys.

 

[TechBoy]

So if AWA ALPS or the company witheld pertinent information regarding the financial condition of AWA, wouldn't that be grounds to overturn the Award?

I realize that this is murky waters but if AWA ALPA knowingly witheld relevent information could this not be a criminal matter as well?

What type od Discovery is allowed during an arbitration case?

Conversely if US ALPA failed to perform proper due diligence doesn't that expose US ALPA to a Breech of Fiduciary Responsibility action by the pilots themselves? Assuming they can prove they were damaged.

Calm down, Bob, and come back to reality. SEC filings are public information and are available to all. And what info would AWA ALPA have that wasn't public information? So there is no case of "withholding" information.

The other key point is that the ongoing financial viability of EITHER airline at the time of the merger is a question of OPINION, not FACT. What we do know is that both carriers were very tight on cash and having questions about long term viability being asked. We also know that US had significant operational losses while AWA had operational profits. So at the time of merger, things were looking bleak for US and mildly better for AWA.

Of course, we all know that RASM in the east grew rapidly post-merger because of a variety of factors and now East is a profitable part of the combined company. But that assumes that US would have survived to enjoy the benefit of the RASM increase.

My own opinion is that AWA would have continued on by itself as a marginally profitable regional carrier. Not much growth, not much profit, but a solid firm nonetheless. US, on the other hand, would have either liquidated or undergone a dramatic shrinkage of 15-25%. I tend to think that management would have tried the shrink to profitability route rather than liquidation. That would have left US as a mildly profitable regional carrier with some Euro routes. It also would have significantly increased the number of pilots on the furlough list.

As for looking for ways out of a legal binding arbitration, I would leave that to expert lawyers. Being a lawyer myself, I know enough about the law in this area to know that nobody on this board knows what they are talking about. Thus far, I haven't heard a single argument for vacating the binding arbitration award that passes the laugh test.

 

[TechBoy]

Like you I know of no legal argument to vacate the award. But I do know about my first paragraph in my post. This freaking thing could drag out until it's laughable. Heck Mr Nicolau may not live long enough to see his award implemented.

If the East pilots remain stubborn, you are very right that they could drag this out for a long time. But then they would be stuck with the very low wages that they now have.

If history is any predictor, I'll bet that the captains and senior FOs want a raise more than they are concerned about the seniority of the furloughees. So I think they'll throw them under the bus by early next year . . .