Where's the damage?

[bigbusdrvr]

I have an honest question for the "East" pilots. Where would you have placed a furloughed 18 yr pilot? At 18 years seniority?
Was DOH a legitmate desire by the entire East group or was it simply being advocated by a few?

-------------------------------------------------------

I believe east wanted some way for our furloughed to recoup some losses via the high atrition expected from the east portion of list.
It appears in that attempt the arbitrator saw it as an attempt to hold down a working west pilots advancement (not fair to do).

Perhaps east should have offered or been more generous with protective fences in the arb's eyes.

Just trying to see what the arb might have been thinking, that or I want some of what he was smoking...

 

[FWAAA]

I am unsure why anyone agreed to binding arbitration in a matter as important as this. :unsure:

With this sentence I agree completely. Why on earth would anyone prefer binding arbitration to a negotiated settlement where everyone would be forced to compromise in order to reach agreement?

Arbitration is fine for small stuff. But big stuff? Settlements are what big stuff demands.

 

[diamondcutter]

I have gone over the combined list time and time again and i can't seem to find where the east got damaged in any way. Now granted, some of you did work for a company for many years and feel ENTITLED to something. I can't help but to see that you have people on furlough with 18yrs of service. Oh wait it can't be 18 YEARS OF SERVICE because for the last six years they have been unemployed!! Why??? Ok so 12 years of service and you are on the bottom of your OWN AAA SENIORITY LIST. Now AWA saves you, (call a spade a spade) and we come together. You expect to move to the top of the list while basically stapleing 2/3's of our pilots to the bottom. I ask you in all honestly, do you really think that's fair????????????

If you were on the bottom before you are on the bottom now. RATIOS thats how it works and it was more than fair in fact if any group got a windfall it was YOU. The top 517 gets DOH. We bring new money and announce new wide body flying and who gets all that?? The east. Our pass travel has been destroyed, a violation of our current contract for WHO?? The east. You guys have gotton windfall after windfall yet you always want more. Only one word to describe you SELFISH...

Get your facts str8 ..we brought more money to the table than AWA did!!!

 

[AWA320]

Get your facts str8 ..we brought more money to the table than AWA did!!!

Now that's some funny #### right there. If you had all this money why on earth were your in BK?? If you had all this money why did you have employees hired in 1988 furloughed until we came along??? If you had all this money why were you not paying your bills??? If you had all this money why did AWA need to meet your payroll prior to this deal even being done??? Want me to go on?????

 

[SkyRat]

Now that's some funny #### right there. If you had all this money why on earth were your in BK?? If you had all this money why did you have employees hired in 1988 furloughed until we came along??? If you had all this money why were you not paying your bills??? If you had all this money why did AWA need to meet your payroll prior to this deal even being done??? Want me to go on?????

Must be great "stuff" they get their hands on, right? Might even be smokeless :wacko: :blush: Ya Mon!

 

[73320]

No, but I will be senior to you. And I'm headed to PHX at the earliest opportunity.

924,

Greetings from the west. Glad to hear this will allow you a shorter commute. better lifestyle etc... Hopefully any west commuters going east will be well resceived, as movement between bases is a wash.

Even if a large contingent of senior east Capts comes west and I am stuck on the bottom of the Capts list in Phoenix for awhile, I will not complain. I will not bid east either. I will be happy for those who benefit from this and will feel the award was the best of a bad situation.

I will feel no stagnation angst and "I am getting screwed" if this happens. I would feel that way if east FO's and furloughs went senior to me in base. I personally thought that this relative seniority list, with - out of seniority upgrades- to long suffering east fo's was the way to go, but it would be impossible to agree on how many etc... especially given the DOH mantra.

924 I hope you can come west very soon as that means you will be bringing a large pay raise we just received and you will get to spend the rest of your career in a much more pleasant way than what you have been experiencing in recent times. May we all win in the big picture!

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Now that's some funny #### right there. If you had all this money why on earth were your in BK?? If you had all this money why did you have employees hired in 1988 furloughed until we came along??? If you had all this money why were you not paying your bills??? If you had all this money why did AWA need to meet your payroll prior to this deal even being done??? Want me to go on?????

OK, look at DL, they just came out of BK, UA last year came out of BK! I guess they don't have any money now that they are not in BK! First of All, did you ever discover the definition of "MERGER"? Even if HP was to buy out US, where would they get the money for it. US still had its assets which I would say are ALOT more than HP could offer. US had financing in place that is why they looked so great. Do the math, look it up.

 

[AWA320]

OK, look at DL, they just came out of BK, UA last year came out of BK! I guess they don't have any money now that they are not in BK! First of All, did you ever discover the definition of "MERGER"? Even if HP was to buy out US, where would they get the money for it. US still had its assets which I would say are ALOT more than HP could offer. US had financing in place that is why they looked so great. Do the math, look it up.

DUDE, what financing???? AWAC floated you a loan to make payroll!!! AAA was dead broke!! Look this is getting tiring and we will never see eye to eye on this thing. We have the opportunity to go and get some money FOR US THIS TIME you in or out???

 

[700UW]

Learn to comprehend, Lakefield and Seabury got the financing for the merger, US not HP.

How US Airways/America West merger got off the ground
Talks between airlines began in 2003, but didn't get serious until this year
Sunday, May 22, 2005

By Dan Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The on-and-off, 18-month courtship between US Airways and America West Airlines finally clicked into place May 12 in Washington, D.C., high above the floor of the MCI Center, where executives from both airlines had gathered in US Airways' skybox to watch a Washington Wizards playoff game.

Just minutes before tip-off, with the din of exploding fireworks filling the arena, US Airways adviser John Luth received an e-mail on his BlackBerry from Air Canada Chief Executive Officer Robert Milton. It confirmed that Air Canada's board had approved an investment in the combined airline -- the final piece of a $1.5 billion financing package needed to make the deal work.

Luth waved his BlackBerry, smiled and gave everyone the news. He congratulated Doug Parker and Bruce Lakefield, the chief executive officers of America West and US Airways, and broad smiles broke out throughout the box.

The merger was on.

Announced a week later at the Tempe, Ariz., headquarters of America West, the agreement between the nation's seventh-and eight-largest airlines paired a twice-bankrupt, East Coast legacy carrier with a younger, smaller, low-cost airline that does much of its flying on the West Coast.

If they can win a slew of antitrust, shareholder and bankruptcy court approvals, US Airways and America West together would surpass discount king Southwest Airlines in size, becoming the No. 6 carrier in the nation. Together, they also could usher in an era of consolidation in the troubled airline industry, which has lost more than $30 billion since 2001.

But there were several twists along the way, according to people familiar with the events. America West was not the only carrier to express interest in US Airways, nor was America West the only partner US Airways pursued.

The search for a deal began in the fall of 2003, when David Siegel was still US Airways' chief executive officer. Siegel had led US Airways through its first bankruptcy and wrested more than $1 billion in concessions from the company's labor unions. But even as the carrier completed a painful round of cost cuts and emerged from bankruptcy, Siegel knew US Airways was still too small and too inefficient to compete against discounters such as Southwest, which had already announced plans to start service in Philadelphia, a US Airways' hub.

Siegel was convinced that for US Airways to avoid the fate of failed carriers such as Eastern Airlines and Pan Am, both of which liquidated in the 1980s, he would have to bring US Airways' costs down further and position the airline for consolidation with another carrier. He explored several options.

Acquire United Airlines, the nation's No. 2 carrier. That option was code-named "Project Minnow," with US Airways as the small fish gobbling the bigger one.

Combine with British entrepreneur Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic, which was interested in US Airways' Washington-Boston-New York shuttle, along with slots and gates in the Northeast.

Split the airline in two and merge the Philadelphia and Charlotte, N.C., hub-and-spoke network with one carrier and its slots and gates in Washington, Boston and New York with another.

But US Airways ultimately rejected those options. United did not have any interest in a deal and was too distracted by its own struggles in bankruptcy. Virgin Atlantic wanted lots of US Airways assets -- gates, planes, airport equipment -- to help launch a new U.S. airline, but all it would offer in retrun was the Virgin brand name. US Airways also turned down several inquiries from other carriers -- including Southwest, JetBlue Airways and AirTran Airways -- about acquiring the company's assets but not its employees.

In the end, only America West wanted both.

Siegel made the initial connection. He knew Parker and Executive Vice President Scott Kirby at America West. Their first face-to-face meeting was in October 2003, over dinner in a Washington, D.C., restaurant. They were joined by then-US Airways Chief Financial Officer Neal Cohen.

But the talks ended several months later. At the request of US Airways' board, Siegel departed from the company in April 2004. According to Parker, the first round of discussions failed because US Airways' costs were still too high. Siegel had started a campaign to lower union costs further, but labor leaders refused to deal with him, contributing to his ouster.

Retired Lehman Bros. executive Bruce Lakefield, a friend of US Airways chairman David Bronner, replaced Siegel and sought to save US Airways. He asked unions to help with another round of concessions. When that failed, Lakefield took the company into bankruptcy again and squeezed another $1 billion in concessions from the unions, using the power of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to hammer home new contracts modeled after America West's labor agreements.

In January, with fuel prices at a record high and doubts aired about US Airways' survival after its Christmas baggage meltdown in Philadelphia, Lakefield picked up the phone and called Parker, suggesting that "maybe we should begin those talks again," according to Parker.

But America West did not have enough cash to lift US Airways out of bankruptcy. It was up to Luth, the US Airways adviser, to find enough investment money to piece the deal together and give the combined company a fighting chance to thrive in the battered airline industry.

Luth and US Airways had serious discussions with more than a dozen investors. They all requested shared participation in a merged airline -- no one wanted to take on all the risk. The Retirement Systems of Alabama, which rescued US Airways from its first bankruptcy in 2003 with a $240 million investment, stands to lose it all if US Airways emerges from bankruptcy and issues new stock.

Luth went after the companies that had something to gain from an investment in US Airways and America West. Aircraft maker Airbus agreed to provide $250 million in exchange for US Airways' pledge to buy dozens of A320 jets in the future. Regional commuter carrier Air Wisconsin Airlines made a $125 million investment in exchange for a jet services partnership. The Appleton, Wis.-based airline will fly for the merged carrier on a contract basis.

Credit card companies may provide $300 million in order to reach new customers. And once-bankrupt Air Canada offered $75 million, good for a 7 percent stake in the new company, in exchange for the rights to bid on the maintenance contract for the new carrier's fleet of 361 jets.
Air Canada was the last in line.

Once its approval came last Thursday, employees at both airlines scrambled to obtain approval from their boards of directors. US Airways' directors signed off Wednesday, over the telephone. America West's board approved it Thursday, in Tempe.

Labor leaders were briefed, and a press release was sent out. Parker and Lakefield spent much of Thursday night explaining the deal to reporters before Lakefield took a red-eye flight back to Washington. Parker, who has been tapped to lead the merged airline, met with employees and went home. Before going to bed, he explained the deal in one final live shot with local TV, from his house.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Dan Fitzpatrick can be reached at [email protected] or 412-263-1752.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction/Clarification: (Published 5/23/05) Air Canada, as part of an investment in the proposed US Airways-America West Airlines merger, has the right to bid only on the maintenance work that can be outsourced under existing labor contracts. It does not have the right to do the maintenance work on all 361 jets belonging to the combined airline, as described incorrectly in a story Sunday. )

 

[fr8tmastr]

I have an honest question for the "East" pilots. Where would you have placed a furloughed 18 yr pilot? At 18 years seniority?
Was DOH a legitmate desire by the entire East group or was it simply being advocated by a few?

It was more of a length of service proposal than a DOH

 

[N924PS]

924,

Greetings from the west. Glad to hear this will allow you a shorter commute. better lifestyle etc... Hopefully any west commuters going east will be well resceived, as movement between bases is a wash.

Even if a large contingent of senior east Capts comes west and I am stuck on the bottom of the Capts list in Phoenix for awhile, I will not complain. I will not bid east either. I will be happy for those who benefit from this and will feel the award was the best of a bad situation.

I will feel no stagnation angst and "I am getting screwed" if this happens. I would feel that way if east FO's and furloughs went senior to me in base. I personally thought that this relative seniority list, with - out of seniority upgrades- to long suffering east fo's was the way to go, but it would be impossible to agree on how many etc... especially given the DOH mantra.

924 I hope you can come west very soon as that means you will be bringing a large pay raise we just received and you will get to spend the rest of your career in a much more pleasant way than what you have been experiencing in recent times. May we all win in the big picture!

I really hope we can all win in the big picture.

Honestly, all this seniority integration chaos doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the airline can't move forward and sustain profitability beyond a few good quarters.

Unfortunately, I don't believe I will get the chance to fly with the West folks any time soon. Doug and company may obtain a joint certificate, but I think they mean to run with separate but unequal airlines until 2009 and beyond. And some ALPA East members are demanding that as well.

There are a few of us that want to join you in PHX or LAS and I know some of your Pilots/Flight Attendants are interested in minimizing their commutes in East Coast bases.

It's all up to Mr. Parker, however. And now that he is spending big bucks at the law firm of Harrison & Ford, a union busting entity, I don't think the future bodes well for an operational merger. Just my opinion.

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Learn to comprehend, Lakefield and Seabury got the financing for the merger, US not HP.

Wasn't GE Capital also involved with financing?

 

[PHLfa88]

Doug said, Doug said DOUG SAID!!! What you will learn over time is Doug loves to hear himself speak!! Now lets look at some cold hard facts. AWA had posted profits in the two quarters just prior to the announcement of the buyout. Not really the kind of thing you do when headed to BK now is it??? Truth is again, you were the second choice and had the ATA deal gone thru I shutter to think where you would be today!!!

You can fly with me anytime and I will never change my position!!! BTW will you be JR to me?

Depends..You A F/A or Pilot? Whats Your Date Of Hire? :unsure:

 

[X-U]

Since Air Whiskey was one of the buyers, shouldn't they be on the top of the list per the AWA argument?

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Since Air Whiskey was one of the buyers, shouldn't they be on the top of the list per the AWA argument?

Now the pieces are falling together. DoUgIe is supporting Air Whiskey and he is getting his DUI's as a result, thus why he is being exempt from being fired.