A New Approach to Pilot Pay at US Airways
- Thread starter HogDriver
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SparrowHawk
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- Nov 30, 2009
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Might have been! Once some one came in low and slow behind me as I sat on 72 and he/she must have opened up the throttle right as they passed over and I almost soiled by Lawn Clothes.
But it's all good right? At least you didn't sent the Pine Barrens on fire like the 2 F-16 Pilots did when the made a practice run, pulled up abruptly and dropped 4 flares (Which they're supposed to do) onto the NJ Pine Barrens when it hadn't rained for several months. Burned something like 25,000 acres.
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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- #18
The math isn't that difficult for a fast and dirty comparison using current TOS. Just take the number of people on each scale (190, east A320/737, west A320/737, etc) X TOS for each scale then add the results up and divide by the total number of people. That would give you two things - the total for for the combined pilot group and the weighted average TOS for the current pay scales. Compare the weighted average to current max TOS (A330 on the east), minimum TOS (E190 on the east) and current TOS for the majority of pilots (A320/737 east & west). For a true single scale (no captain and FO scales) that gives you the starting points.
Then see how much you'd have to add to the weighted average for the new TOS to be what you want - say $200/hr - and multiply that by the total number of active pilots to see the cost of the single scale would be if the steps of the scale remained the same as the current system. As I said, I'd be surprised if the current weighted TOS is much different from current weighted average A320/737 TOS, or about $130/hr. Would the company agree to something like increasing every pilot's (or captain's with a captain and FO scale) as much as $70/hr?
Where it gets difficult, and needs a crystal ball to figure out, is trying to compare the current multiple scales with pilots at various steps to a new single scale (or two if there's separate captain and FO scales). How many pilots will be on probation each year for the next 5-10 years, how many pilots would be on each step of the current and new scale(s), etc.
Then there's the transition cost. Under the current system nearly all pilots bid the highest paying jobs - maybe not as soon as they can hold them but eventually. That's the normal order of progression. Under your system there isn't a "highest paying job" so the first several years would involve pilots bidding all kinds of different jobs as vacancies became available. There would be no natural order of progression, meaning a lot more trickle down movement every bid. And finally, what do you do when the first new hire is assigned A330 captain.
As for the DFR, it's one thing to have had a system like you propose for a long time but another to put it in after a merger. It could easily be seen as a way of benefiting the east, which has higher average longevity, at the expense of the west. Sure, nearly everyone would eventually reach TOS just like nearly everyone would get to be very senior with DOH. But eventually doesn't mean that it doesn't benefit one side now, just like DOH.
Jim
Elevation
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- Oct 21, 2002
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And who's going to pay for this? And I don't mean Parker because he's got a set number to pay for pilots, the union will split the money pot right? So basically the very junior and the senior guys make less and will foot the bill for the angry FO club again trying to swindle there way to relevance? No thanks, they've done enough damage to this pilot group.
L
luvn737s
Guest
Dumb idea. So you sit down with Parker and he says, "So, where should we start with longevity pilot pay?" You say, "Let's start with current (LOA93) book rates and go up from there." "Hold on, cowboy", Parker says, "Why should we start there? You are starting from book rates that are comparable to other airlines who base their rates on the productivity of the airplane they fly. No, if you want a pay scheme based on longevity, let's start with the secretaries pay scale."
Or, how about you can get 1 CA upgrade bypass, then you either take it or drop off you ID with the CP secretary.
Should they hire CA off the street? Again, dumb idea.
As long as solutions heavily weighted in favor of one "side" over another are offered, they are non-starters.
Or, how about you can get 1 CA upgrade bypass, then you either take it or drop off you ID with the CP secretary.
Should they hire CA off the street? Again, dumb idea.
As long as solutions heavily weighted in favor of one "side" over another are offered, they are non-starters.
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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- #21
HogDriver,
I ran the weighted average TOS for the east captains only using Airline Pilot Central's pay rates and it came to $129.62/hr. To get the TOS to $200/hr under a single captain scale would add $70/hr. Multiply that by the total pay hours per year - I have no how many that is - and you've got the cost for just the east captains.
According to the annual report, US flew 1,217,000 block hours, not pay hours. But using block hours, and assuming a 2 to 1 split for east and west block hours, east flew 810,522 block hours last year. Adding $70/hour (to make TOS $200/hr) would increase east captain pay $56,736,540. To keep FO TOS the same percentage of captain TOS as under the current system, it would add a little more than that - there are more FO's than captains. So we're talking something like $115 million/year just for the pay proposal on the east side - without the cost of any other improvements in the contract. Include the west in the pay calculations, throw in some other improvements like more vacation, and the total goes over $200 million/year pretty quickly. That's three times US' net profit for 2011.
Jim
I ran the weighted average TOS for the east captains only using Airline Pilot Central's pay rates and it came to $129.62/hr. To get the TOS to $200/hr under a single captain scale would add $70/hr. Multiply that by the total pay hours per year - I have no how many that is - and you've got the cost for just the east captains.
According to the annual report, US flew 1,217,000 block hours, not pay hours. But using block hours, and assuming a 2 to 1 split for east and west block hours, east flew 810,522 block hours last year. Adding $70/hour (to make TOS $200/hr) would increase east captain pay $56,736,540. To keep FO TOS the same percentage of captain TOS as under the current system, it would add a little more than that - there are more FO's than captains. So we're talking something like $115 million/year just for the pay proposal on the east side - without the cost of any other improvements in the contract. Include the west in the pay calculations, throw in some other improvements like more vacation, and the total goes over $200 million/year pretty quickly. That's three times US' net profit for 2011.
Jim
USA320Pilot
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- May 18, 2003
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This idea is not new and has been discussed by ALPA and USAPA many times before. In addition, Boeing Boy's analysis is excellent.
When union's negotiate a new contract with improvements management will cost account the discussions and use their E&FA Department to provide financial detail. Management will have a set figure that they will agree is the top end of their offer. Management would not object to where the dollars are divided, e.g. pay, retirement, vacation, etc., but their increased cost top end offer will not be exceeded.
LOS pay will require a reallocation of dollars and likely take money away from the senior to be provided to the junior. How many senior pilots would do that?
All though this idea has merit, for the reasons discussed by Boeing Boy and this re-dsitribution of wealth concept, I believe this idea would not pass muster.
BoeingBoy
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I did make one small mistake in the above calculations. I used Airline Pilot Central's E190 TOS captain rate which is correct for this year and next (rounded to nearest dollar, like all their pay rates). However, starting in 2014 and continuing until renegotiated, that rate goes to $103/hour from the current $101/hour. Given that there are only 80 E190 captain positions, the difference in weighted average TOS would be small - it would be $129.75 instead of $129.62.
One thing I didn't mention is the number of years to reach TOS under a single pay scale (or scales if there's a separate FO scale). The longer the scale the less the additional cost, although there wouldn't be big differences unless pay increased for 25-30 years. That's because most of the pilots are already at TOS on the current 12 year scales (and have 20 or more years for all the pilots on the merger east list, not west or "third" lists) so the only way to reduce the extra cost is to have fewer pilots at the top step of a new single scale. However, stretching a single list out to require 20 or more years to reach TOS increases the DFR burden - a bigger percentage of east pilots are at TOS than west pilots. For example, at the end of this year nearly 2000 east pilots will have 25 years or more of longevity while only a handful of west pilots will have 25 years. So an extended single pay scale just transfers more of the money to east pilots than parity does with the current pay scales.
Which goes to illustrate how much change there has to be in the highest and lowest current TOS rates to change the rate a little for the over 2/3 of east captains getting the A320/737 TOS rate. The current A330 TOS rate drops $30/hr to bring the E190 up $27/hr and the A320/737 (where the bulk of the pilots are) up $5/hr - a raise too smalll for most wouldn't be happy with.
Jim
One thing I didn't mention is the number of years to reach TOS under a single pay scale (or scales if there's a separate FO scale). The longer the scale the less the additional cost, although there wouldn't be big differences unless pay increased for 25-30 years. That's because most of the pilots are already at TOS on the current 12 year scales (and have 20 or more years for all the pilots on the merger east list, not west or "third" lists) so the only way to reduce the extra cost is to have fewer pilots at the top step of a new single scale. However, stretching a single list out to require 20 or more years to reach TOS increases the DFR burden - a bigger percentage of east pilots are at TOS than west pilots. For example, at the end of this year nearly 2000 east pilots will have 25 years or more of longevity while only a handful of west pilots will have 25 years. So an extended single pay scale just transfers more of the money to east pilots than parity does with the current pay scales.
Which goes to illustrate how much change there has to be in the highest and lowest current TOS rates to change the rate a little for the over 2/3 of east captains getting the A320/737 TOS rate. The current A330 TOS rate drops $30/hr to bring the E190 up $27/hr and the A320/737 (where the bulk of the pilots are) up $5/hr - a raise too smalll for most wouldn't be happy with.
Jim
Move2CLT
Veteran
- Banned
- #24
I thought this whole LOS pay scale was Hummel's idea.
I'm wondering if this would have even come up without the Nic being a worry to the east.
At least he realizes, in so many words, that it's coming.
Tell me, did Hummel put you up to this to get a smell test on it?
It'll be interesting to see which committee your names pops up on in April.
I'm wondering if this would have even come up without the Nic being a worry to the east.
At least he realizes, in so many words, that it's coming.
Tell me, did Hummel put you up to this to get a smell test on it?
It'll be interesting to see which committee your names pops up on in April.
OP
HogDriver
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- Sep 2, 2002
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- #28
Geez...Some of you guys hanging out on this web board too much. No...this is not some test by Hummel. The only USAPA rep I have discussed this with was Mike Gillies. I have been talking about this type approach to pay for a long time now. Even posted questions on it back a couple years ago on this site.
Regardless of whether we go DOH or NIC (and nothing is decided yet), I believe a better way to divide total pilot pay exists out there. The fact we have such disparity for essentially the same job creates the fight for the top, and with our airline only a lucky few trully make the top while less lucky end up supplementing the top. It works at other carriers and I think it is doable here. I will take a look at BoeingBoy's numbers and study it further...Thanks BB.
BTW...you never answered my question to you.
Move2CLT
Veteran
- Banned
- #29
I had heard this exact proposal during Hummel's campaign as part of his velvet glove approach to neutering the Nic. If you want to take credit for it than its yours.
Like I said in a previous post, the one's that benefit from this LOS pay scale the most are, well, you and your fellow angry pilots. Its quite obvious why you're a big fan of the plan.
The company isn't going to allow costs to go above what they've set out and you're merely redistributing the pay to a relatively small part of the seniority list. That's not going to fly.
How about we go traditional for this contract and then talk about these radical changes when we're all working off a single list and have more than just east pilots on the NAC.
And what was your question. There are other easties I have to keep tabs on to make sure they don't stray too far and you're still too new to keep track of.
cleardirect
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- May 24, 2008
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I think that your idea has merit. I would not call it longevity pay but instead a single pay rate. I agree with it and as a matter of fact. The west has just that concept. We have a single pay rate for all of the aircraft. 757, 320,321, 737 all pay the same. The west suggested it to the NAC long ago. As usual the east NAC thought that it was a rookie way of doing things and commuter work rules. Did not want to hear about the way the west did anything.
Like I said, I like the idea and would support a single pay rate for all of the aircraft. It does however bring up some serious questions.
Would the “senior international wide body captains” be willing to be paid the same rate as the rest of us mortals flying narrow body equipment? How would the current and future 330 captains feel about being paid the same as a 190 captain? I do see a single pay rate fixing the WB problem. If it pays the same we would see who really wants to fly those trips and you east guys would not have to worry about west guys “taking” your spots. My guess would be WB international would go junior if it paid the same. Is flying WB about the money or is it about the ego?
We could all agree to a single pay rate. The problem is going to be getting the company to agree to it. With the demographics we have a large percentage (70%-80%) would be at the TOS. That is expensive for the company. With a long scale such as 20-25 years it is much flatter and the money would not come until the later years. How does the company attract new hires if the starting salary is very low and does not increase for 10-15 years? No other company has that long of a pay scale how do you convince the company or NMB to accept it? Is it better for the pilots to have a steep curve and get to TOS faster or have a long flat curve with the money at the end? I know it is all about right now and the guys that have just a few years left, screw the young guys.
How do you convince the company that it is cost effective to pay an F/O almost the same amount as a captain in the later years? What happens if the company demands an up or out clause? As soon as you can upgrade you must upgrade or resign. No more sitting at the top of the F/O list for the lifestyle. WB F/O’s would be junior because you would have to upgrade to NB captain.
I prefer a single pay scale. It saves training costs because you do not have people chasing money. The pilots can capture that savings. There is much less bumping and movement. I do see this long scale as a way to pay off a certain segment of the east pilot group. I can see a single pay rate but not longer than 15 years.
Like I said, I like the idea and would support a single pay rate for all of the aircraft. It does however bring up some serious questions.
Would the “senior international wide body captains” be willing to be paid the same rate as the rest of us mortals flying narrow body equipment? How would the current and future 330 captains feel about being paid the same as a 190 captain? I do see a single pay rate fixing the WB problem. If it pays the same we would see who really wants to fly those trips and you east guys would not have to worry about west guys “taking” your spots. My guess would be WB international would go junior if it paid the same. Is flying WB about the money or is it about the ego?
We could all agree to a single pay rate. The problem is going to be getting the company to agree to it. With the demographics we have a large percentage (70%-80%) would be at the TOS. That is expensive for the company. With a long scale such as 20-25 years it is much flatter and the money would not come until the later years. How does the company attract new hires if the starting salary is very low and does not increase for 10-15 years? No other company has that long of a pay scale how do you convince the company or NMB to accept it? Is it better for the pilots to have a steep curve and get to TOS faster or have a long flat curve with the money at the end? I know it is all about right now and the guys that have just a few years left, screw the young guys.
How do you convince the company that it is cost effective to pay an F/O almost the same amount as a captain in the later years? What happens if the company demands an up or out clause? As soon as you can upgrade you must upgrade or resign. No more sitting at the top of the F/O list for the lifestyle. WB F/O’s would be junior because you would have to upgrade to NB captain.
I prefer a single pay scale. It saves training costs because you do not have people chasing money. The pilots can capture that savings. There is much less bumping and movement. I do see this long scale as a way to pay off a certain segment of the east pilot group. I can see a single pay rate but not longer than 15 years.
