A New Way For Pilot Pay

[HogDriver]

I posted this on another website. I am interested in fellow pilots
views on this idea. I see it as a good way for our futures. Let me
know what you think.



How to fix the system for Pilots

It amazes me how much conflict comes from pilots fighting pilots when
the common goal should be what is best for our entire group. I have
been in this business now for nearly 23 years with Eastern and Usair,
and also the Air Force. I have seen the enemy and it is us.

The reason so many are yelling and screaming is because we all want
to reach that golden ticket....the biggest jet and the highest pay.
The current pay system we work under was designed in an era of props
and airmail. The bigger the aircraft, the more you make. Also the
huge difference between left and right seats pay came from a time
when the capt. was god, the co-pilot did not know crap, and you had
to gain experience to make it to the good pay. This system as as
relevent as a tri-motor on the ramp.

The reason the Nic pushed so many buttons for the east was, if it
stood, younger less LOS west pilots would gain the coveted seats
ahead of us, thereby reducing our pay and retirement after many years
of service, sacrifice and investment in a company that always seemed
to fall short. Is that fair? Is that right? No, but who could blame a
west pilot for wanting the same thing any other would...I deserve
good pay and a good retirement.

I propose a paradigm shift in pilot pay. It is redicules to have such
pay differences between equipment and seats. Our airline has a small
number of wide-bodies, yet there is where the top money goes. Tell me
there is a difference between flying a 330, a 320 and a 190. All
require the same training, testing and skill. You can argue the 190
takes more as you operate in and out of difficult airports all day
while a 330 has a nice long cruise across the pond on one leg. I
believe a length of service pay ( just like any other employee ) vs.
aircraft catagory pay, along with a more closely aligned CA-F/O pay
spread can take away most of the infighting we will have on this
property for the next 50 years.

Think about it. If you are a ten or twenty year F/O...constantly
waiting to upgrade to make the better pay, suddenly it is not such a
change worth chasing all over the system. Instead of 30-40%
difference to Capt, a 10 or 20% difference increase does not mean it
would be worth commuting all over the system just to hold a seat.
Same goes for catagory flying. If the 330 pays the same as a 190, why
bust your balls to keep training and moving to get that golden ticket.

I see this as soothing the east-west conflict, saving the company
millions in un-needed training, making the pay fair and rational for
ALL pilots at every stage of their career, and protecting us from
future aircraft purchase decisions by the company. What do you think
is more likely....a big buy of wide bodies....or more 190's to
replace the 737 fleet. Under this plan pilots would not care what a/c
the company bought. As it is set now, a 190-737 replacement would
cause more pay to go down in the future. That is just stupid.

Under this plan seniority would still be used for tip selection,
vacation, etc., but the big motivator...getting better pay at the
expense of someone else would disappear.

Some will say not doable...co. won't buy it....senior pilots won't
like it, etc. I see it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to go with
this. One, we have a new union. Two, all pay is so low that even with
a rationalizing of the pay levels everyone will still get a raise.
Three, the alternative of doing the same ole same ole is a divided
pilot group, constant climbing over each other for that golden ring,
and possible future loss of pay with more 190's showing up in the
future. Four, the training cost savings to the company could be huge.

It is how UPS and BA pay their pilots. It tends to make the larger
Int'l planes more Jr. as older guys with more seniority bid the short-
haul one time-zone trips vs. the long haul grind. I certainly do not
want to be humping across the pond at 64 yrs old. If pay was based on
years of service it would not make a difference what aircraft you
needed to fly.

The Air Force also has the same type system. Does not matter what seat
or equipment you fly. Just your time in service sets your pay.


If someone has a better idea I am all ears. The time for a rational
change has come. We have a short window to try and get it done. I
hope we do for ALL our pilots sake.

 

[73320]

Hog,

Your sentiments are good but it is a bad idea. The company will get the money that the pilots do not negotiate for the larger equipment. Bigger plane should create more revenue and provide higher pay for the pilots. No carrier has ever done this and been paid well. America West is a good example. Junior pilots seem to always like the idea. Good in theory bad in practice.

A solution to the problem you seek in my opinion would have been to fence current U heavies for all U pilots, any new equipment open to bid with no restrictions. The east attrition should have been mostly protected for the east but not all of it because the west was growing and would need to get some movement if attrition is the only game in town. Furlough protection provided via the Nic. No fences except maybe bid protection fence for east using DOH for east bases for some length of time. There were many reasonable scenarios that could have come to fruition and done the best for the most to maintain any reasonable pre-merger expectations. Nothing good has ever come from airlines downsizing and furloughing, especially to the extent that happened at U. Your own infighting over the years in dealing with it is not pretty. It never is and is hard to take. These problems would occur combining U with any other carrier - there simply is no comparison on where DOH exists on the list anywhere.Now USAPA will have the chance to try and impose what is fair and reasonable or whatever it is they think. Best of Luck!

 

[lineguy43]

Hog,

Your sentiments are good but it is a bad idea. The company will get the money that the pilots do not negotiate for the larger equipment. Bigger plane should create more revenue and provide higher pay for the pilots. No carrier has ever done this and been paid well. America West is a good example. Junior pilots seem to always like the idea. Good in theory bad in practice.

A solution to the problem you seek in my opinion would have been to fence current U heavies for all U pilots, any new equipment open to bid with no restrictions. The east attrition should have been mostly protected for the east but not all of it because the west was growing and would need to get some movement if attrition is the only game in town. Furlough protection provided via the Nic. No fences except maybe bid protection fence for east using DOH for east bases for some length of time. There were many reasonable scenarios that could have come to fruition and done the best for the most to maintain any reasonable pre-merger expectations. Nothing good has ever come from airlines downsizing and furloughing, especially to the extent that happened at U. Your own infighting over the years in dealing with it is not pretty. It never is and is hard to take. These problems would occur combining U with any other carrier - there simply is no comparison on where DOH exists on the list anywhere.Now USAPA will have the chance to try and impose what is fair and reasonable or whatever it is they think. Best of Luck!

Why couldn't it work?...You get paid by seniority and not equipment. You have guys who want to fly the big jets and international and you also have senior guys who just want to fly 737's or MD-80's and be home more often... It's a personal choice.. But you get paid by your years of service and bid what you can with your seniority and don't have to chase the big equipment to get the bigger paycheck..I think that approach is cheaper in training costs. But this is my opinion of course..I could always be mistaken.

 

[HogDriver]

Actually, it already works very well at UPS, the highest paid pilots in the US. The more Jr equipment is the 747 flying int'l. Same for British Airways. The company does not steal a break from lower rates. Capt. and F/O pay is set for years of service. Does not matter what aircraft they fly. A 737 pays the same as a 747. Here is a simple idea. Start with a total pay budget target that, under the old system, would set the desired pay rates for all the seperate aircraft catagories. Then, working with-in that total pilot budget, rationalize the pay rates across the board. Because our pay at US is already so low in comparison to the rest of the industry, the new leveled pay would still mean a raise for the entire list. Fences just make some pilots disadvantaged and unable to make the higher pay for longer terms. Rational pay also protects during downgrades. Something this airline will probably see again.

 

[eckoa6]

Now I'm not a pilot nor do I even work at US but living in PHX and flying on HP for the past 7 years I'll admit that I was rooting for the west in the past few months, but with all that aside and what the situation is this is the kind of thinking that could really help to improve the current situation between the east and the west. As you said it might ruffle feathers with some of the more senior crowd who don't like or want to see change, but in a world were this industry changes every day almost every aspect associated with it needs to also. A good comparison that could is comparing four professionals who say for the sake of argument are all VP's of sales at the same company at the same location , two work large corporate accounts one is a is a senior VP with 20 years with the company the other is a junior VP with 10 years while the other two work small business accounts again one senior with 20 years and one junior with 10 years. Both Seniors have 20 years with the company and while working different types of accounts but both have the same base salary with the same adjustment for LOS as both are putting in the same amount and type of work even though working two different aspects, and the same goes for the junior vp's who are adjusted for there 10 years. So if this works in the corporate world why can't it work in the pilot world. You guys are all highly trained professionals some working in a office some working in a cockpit, but regardless both are doing what they were trained to do, and have gained similar levels of experience based on there time working a specific task.

 

[TechBoy]

The OP makes eminent sense. It would also be easiest to implement at US given the tiny widebody fleet. Perhaps the current widebody captains could maintain current grandfathered wages and everyone else moves to the new system.

But something tells me that too many existing pilots have dreams of being a PanAm 747 captain of yesteryear and this could never pass . . .

 

[Benz M-100]

pilots have dreams of being a PanAm 747 captain of yesteryear

Not me. I want some control over my schedule. Prefer left seat, but if the $ is good enough, I may be able to deal with the right seat. The concept seems sound, but the devil's in the details.

 

[Edward]

Re opened here.

 

[HogDriver]

Re opened here.

Hey Mod...Can you tell me why a subject about changing the way US Airways Pilots might be paid to help out our seniority issues ends up in the general aviation basement?

I started it in US Airways for a reason. You moved it and it died.