A contract for US FAs must be completed prior to any new merger deal.

[USA320Pilot]

So, I had a friend of mine who works with AA text me some highlights of the agreement that US (xcuseme AWA) management made with APFA, and I just can't help but wonder: American Airlines F/A's are already some of the highest paid F/A's in the industry, and Douggie goes there and offers them a pay-raise? What a f... slap in the face to all America West flight attendants.

It is just so outrageous that he would do this when time and time again, he has adamantly refused to give pay parity to the west flight attendants.

I remember being at the crew news sessions where a flight attendant cried while explaining that he was not able to make his mortgage payment, and the executives just shrugging it off with no sympathy.

It is now absolutely clear AWA execs don't give a damn about AWA employees as they can be kicked and beaten to the curb.

With all due respect, your comments above are unfair. During the US Airways-APFA negotiations US Airways offered your union the highest legacy pay rates in the industry and the opportunity to have a contract that offered better economics if you entered a McCaskill-Bond SLI final and binding arbitration that may not be DOH with relative position slotting.

The F/A's turned down the TA against the advice of Mike Flores, Deborah Volpe, and the JNC. These people warned the F/A's that if you turned down the deal you would lose money and have merger risks, but the majority of the F/A's ignored their union's Officer/JNC leadership's advice. Whose fault is that? There is nobody to blame here accept the rank-and-file F/A's.

Now APFA will be be your surrogate Negotiating Committee who will give you a second bite of the apple and negotiate your next take it or leave it contract per the CPLR.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Personally I think you're wrong. The important thing isn't how the combined seniority list was arrived at - it could have been drawing seniority numbers out of a jar for all it matters - but that the list was presented to US and accepted as the combined list. For DFR purposes it may make a difference, but for merger purposes it doesn't. All that's needed is a single certified list from each side and I have no doubt that the AFA won't submit anything but the existing combined list (updated as necessary). Hence no reason for a DFR suit by US FA's. What would open the door to a DFR suit by US FA's is if the AFA presented anything else, say separate east and west lists as the USAPA faithful are talking about.

You're falling into the same trap as the USAPA faithful IMO. Thinking that because a single list isn't in use yet it has no substance (or legal standing).

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

Personally I think you're wrong. The important thing isn't how the combined seniority list was arrived at - it could have been drawing seniority numbers out of a jar for all it matters - but that the list was presented to US and accepted as the combined list. For DFR purposes it may make a difference, but for merger purposes it doesn't. All that's needed is a single certified list from each side and I have no doubt that the AFA won't submit anything but the existing combined list (updated as necessary). Hence no reason for a DFR suit by US FA's. What would open the door to a DFR suit by US FA's is if the AFA presented anything else, say separate east and west lists as the USAPA faithful are talking about.

You're falling into the same trap as the USAPA faithful IMO. Thinking that because a single list isn't in use yet it has no substance (or legal standing).

Jim

Jim,

I hope I'm wrong. The issue is the F/A's have agreed upon a seniority list and presented it to the Company, but it has not been implemented per the Transition Agreement. Will the un-ratiified East-West seniority List be accepted by the Arbitrator or will APFA seek for a final and binding SLI with 3 lists? What I do know for sure is that if the F/A's had ratified their TA shortly before Doug Parker announced US Airways had "signed (Conditional Plan of Labor Restructuring) agreements with the three unions that represent nearly 55,000 American Airlines employees" we would not be having this conversation because the AFA would have one list before they possibly enter into final and binding arbitration.

Where I believe I'm 100% sure I'm not wrong is that if the APFA does not agree to DOH and forces a McCaskill-Bond SLI US Airways' F/A's are in a worse AA SLI position than if they had ratified their TA. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Volpe, and the JNC when they said, "What Happens if There is a Merger?

• NMB process
– Single carrier determination.
– Representation election if different unions.
– Merger of contracts.
• Scope is one piece of the equation.
• How do we want to be positioned for a merger? With wage rates $5-8 dollars below AA and open contracts or with better waqge rates and work rules locked in."

USA320Pilot

 

[767one]

With all due respect, your comments above are unfair. During the US Airways-APFA negotiations US Airways offered your union the highest legacy pay rates in the industry and the opportunity to have a contract that offered better economics if you entered a McCaskill-Bond SLI final and binding arbitration that may not be DOH with relative position slotting.

The F/A's turned down the TA against the advice of Mike Flores, Deborah Volpe, and the JNC. These people warned the F/A's that if you turned down the deal you would lose money and have merger risks, but the majority of the F/A's ignored their union's Officer/JNC leadership's advice. Whose fault is that? There is nobody to blame here accept the rank-and-file F/A's.

Now APFA will be be your surrogate Negotiating Committee who will give you a second bite of the apple and negotiate your next take it or leave it contract per the CPLR.

The pay was only a small part of the package. It still looked like a concessionary contract if you took it as a whole rather than cherry pick the good.

 

[usfliboi]

The pay was only a small part of the package. It still looked like a concessionary contract if you took it as a whole rather than cherry pick the good.

I would strongly disagree... Over all there was a 15% raise.. not sure where you got your information from! Either way you look at it..there a huge group out there who thinks our contract sure does look quite nice....(American) Was it enough to satisfy the appetite of our afa group at the time? Nope ...Watch what happens iin the next couple of months though....

 

[Onestep2flt]

I would strongly disagree... Over all there was a 15% raise.. not sure where you got your information from! Either way you look at it..there a huge group out there who thinks our contract sure does look quite nice....(American) Was it enough to satisfy the appetite of our afa group at the time? Nope ...Watch what happens iin the next couple of months though....

I think you missed the point completely! I think what what 767 was trying to convey was that money was only a small part of the overall picture. Meaning that MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING! That is the whole point. You are right that in dollars there were a raise. In fact for your coworkers on the west it was quite a bit more than 15% at some steps. What your management and your negotiators are failing to comprehend is that there were more important issues than just the "raise" that you would have got out of it.

I think after seven years they could have constructed something that was not as poorly put together as what they did. Between very confusing language with regard to mergers, an unlivable reserve section, No real plan other than a few "Clarification" side letters on others. Not to mention you were not even voting on the final version of the T/A with the disclaimer of typos and paragraph reference errors should have been the biggest red flag.

The flight attendant group finally woke up. I don't think there should be any confusion. There will be a hard road ahead but don't give into the fear that some spread here. You can't except an inferior contract because of the unknown. You may or may not merge with another carrier. I said this before. Remember you were merging with United which was a done deal according to many of the fear mongers here. Then the Delta takeover that turned into keep Delta their Northwest! This may actually happen or it may not. You should focus solely on merging the two groups you have now without worrying what the "insiders" say. Should you be aware of the issues regarding any possible mergers? That is is of course yes, but don't get caught up in the things you have no control over. What you do have control over is voicing your desire for better more clearly laid out scope. If you actually have a lawyer and professional negotiators working for you they need to come off their seven year vacation and start listening to what the flight attendants want!

 

[700UW]

How much of a medical insurance increase was it for the east FAs and the west FAs?

 

[Onestep2flt]

How much of a medical insurance increase was it for the east FAs and the west FAs?

I don't have the numbers, but the big unknown is the coverage itself. As part of the new health care law if fully impemented the health coverage could be considered a "Cadilac" plan and might be terminated by the company in that case.(according to the poorly worded language) Problem is, the negotiators could only drum up another side letter that states they would discuss the issue. Now what? Seems that raise you thought you had might just dry up. Too many things left up in the air. Don't worry, they will talk about it though!! I believe this is one of the top three issues especially for those out west.

 

[Phoenix]

I would strongly disagree... Over all there was a 15% raise.. not sure where you got your information from! Either way you look at it..there a huge group out there who thinks our contract sure does look quite nice....(American) Was it enough to satisfy the appetite of our afa group at the time? Nope ...Watch what happens iin the next couple of months though....

If find it hard to believe that 76% of the voting FAs turned down what 1 FA says was a 15% raise.

 

[767one]

I think you missed the point completely! I think what what 767 was trying to convey was that money was only a small part of the overall picture. Meaning that MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING! That is the whole point. You are right that in dollars there were a raise. In fact for your coworkers on the west it was quite a bit more than 15% at some steps. What your management and your negotiators are failing to comprehend is that there were more important issues than just the "raise" that you would have got out of it.

I think after seven years they could have constructed something that was not as poorly put together as what they did. Between very confusing language with regard to mergers, an unlivable reserve section, No real plan other than a few "Clarification" side letters on others. Not to mention you were not even voting on the final version of the T/A with the disclaimer of typos and paragraph reference errors should have been the biggest red flag.

The flight attendant group finally woke up. I don't think there should be any confusion. There will be a hard road ahead but don't give into the fear that some spread here. You can't except an inferior contract because of the unknown. You may or may not merge with another carrier. I said this before. Remember you were merging with United which was a done deal according to many of the fear mongers here. Then the Delta takeover that turned into keep Delta their Northwest! This may actually happen or it may not. You should focus solely on merging the two groups you have now without worrying what the "insiders" say. Should you be aware of the issues regarding any possible mergers? That is is of course yes, but don't get caught up in the things you have no control over. What you do have control over is voicing your desire for better more clearly laid out scope. If you actually have a lawyer and professional negotiators working for you they need to come off their seven year vacation and start listening to what the flight attendants want!

That was exactly what I was trying to say. It the company gives you a 15% raise but takes 25% in other contractual items you have a concessionary contract. If only money is what you want and you don't mind living on a airplane then it might look good to you.

 

[BungeeJumper]

Where I believe I'm 100% sure I'm not wrong is that if the APFA does not agree to DOH and forces a McCaskill-Bond SLI US Airways' F/A's are in a worse AA SLI position than if they had ratified their TA. I agree with Mike Flores, Deborah Volpe, and the JNC when they said, "What Happens if There is a Merger?

When stating that the US Airways F/A's are in a worse AA SLI position than if they had ratified their TA, how do you mean? Are you referring to the East US FA's being in a worse position, because if the West US FA's are on a different list, West US FA's could become higher in seniority than East US FA's with more years of service, similar to how Nicolau arbitrated the US pilots? Please clarify how they will be worse off with a M-B SLI.

 

[USA330300]

You had a contract presented to you. Should have taken it and STFU. All FAs that voted against it should be moved to the unemployment line.

 

[Pi brat]

You had a contract presented to you. Should have taken it and STFU. All FAs that voted against it should be moved to the unemployment line.

Very interesting position. Do you care to expand on it? Are you a US F/A? If not, what position are you in that leads you to this conclusion, especially the unemployment line?

 

[ebwgs]

Very interesting position. Do you care to expand on it? Are you a US F/A? If not, what position are you in that leads you to this conclusion, especially the unemployment line?

It's not worth engaging this clown.

 

[767one]

I would strongly disagree... Over all there was a 15% raise.. not sure where you got your information from! Either way you look at it..there a huge group out there who thinks our contract sure does look quite nice....(American) Was it enough to satisfy the appetite of our afa group at the time? Nope ...Watch what happens iin the next couple of months though....

I'm sure the contract looked good to the AA group.....they are in BK and are about to have something really bad crammed down their throats by the BK process. I think the vote on the contract was pretty much indicative of a group that is tired of the "yellow rain" that has been falling on them. Maybe with a merger the f/a group will end up with that same offer or maybe they can explain to the AA group what could be done to improve the offer to make it better for all.