2015 Fleet Service Discussion

[NYer]

Ok since someone asked this on another thread for mechanics. Let's do a few equations here and see what we come up with for Fleet?

Let's start with the industry averaging and I'm asking if people think this is correct?

TOP BASE FORMULAS: With .75 added to UAL longevity and .30 added to AA longevity

AA $23.78 contractual raise before averaging.
----------------
UAL $25.35
DL $25.28
US $23.48

IF I'm right as I read the contract US should no longer be added into the averaging formula since the company has gained the single operating certificate? So without US in the equation averaging UAL and DL comes out to $25.31 as the new TOP Base rate in September? Thoughts? If US is or winds up being included in the formula that comes out to $24.70.

Now the company has been stating 7% above the TOP Delta BASE rate. $25.28 + 7% = $27.04 IF that's ultimately what our negotiators settle on at the end of JCBA talks and we vote it in.

 

 
That's wrong...too high.

 

[NYer]

this is just rumors Ive heard,  they want to do away with catering and close some cities.    if that were true  given that the company is making huge profits  then in my own honest opin  there is no flippin way we should give any of that up.    

 
Look at what other legacy airlines have or don't have in their CBA's and that will be their target.

 

[NYer]

Sir, if your wage numbers are correct,
the contract has a formula,
I have written it in EXCEL, 
This DELTA +7 is by all accounts is just another rumor, fabricated and designed to give the people hope.
The idea of a %10.8 raise is very lofty and just unrealistic, you never mentioned the %4 that Doug is waving at us at the finish line.
 
What is a more conservative and better grounded idea of what might happen is.
 
The wage gap as it is written in the contract + the %4.0 that is waiting for us at the finish line.
 
$25.38 or %8.09 increase.
 
 
=ROUND(23.48*(ROUND(((((25.35+25.28+23.49)/3)-23.78)/23.48),3)+1),2)*1.04

 
The rates would be around $26.50 with the Delta+7% target.
 
The wage adjuster will net us a little over $1.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
The rates would be around $26.50 with the Delta+7% target.
 
The wage adjuster will net us a little over $1.

One thing I don't profess to be is a math whiz. But what I went off of to postulate my formula was the example used in the current CBA for TWU Fleet. Working that formula backwards and utilizing the language that considered a higher rate if UAL/CAL remained under separate CBA's is how I arrived at my opinion that the lower US rate (.30 longevity) should be excluded from the formula? But I also did include a rate if they are not excluded.

How did you arrive at your equations? Also remembering that nothing on the rates can be officially publicized since Delta can change their current rates at will. 

 

[NYer]

One thing I don't profess to be is a math whiz. But what I went off of to postulate my formula was the example used in the current CBA for TWU Fleet. Working that formula backwards and utilizing the language that considered a higher rate if UAL/CAL remained under separate CBA's is how I arrived at my opinion that the lower US rate (.30 longevity) should be excluded from the formula? But I also did include a rate if they are not excluded.

How did you arrive at your equations? Also remembering that nothing on the rates can be officially publicized since Delta can change their current rates at will. 

 
Math

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Math

Ok if you do not want to share how you arrived at your formulas then I will just go by the one's that I posted until someone else posts what they believe to be the correct formula or those in an official capacity with either the IAM or TWU share how the formula is supposed to work through the utilization of their professional accountants.

 

[NYer]

Ok if you do not want to share how you arrived at your formulas then I will just go by the one's that I posted until someone else posts what they believe to be the correct formula or those in an official capacity with either the IAM or TWU share how the formula is supposed to work through the utilization of their professional accountants.

 
The formula and equations are in the CBA. Quite simply, your numbers are wrong.
 
Been telling you that for quite some time now, but you insist.

 

[WeAAsles]

The formula and equations are in the CBA. Quite simply, your numbers are wrong.
 
Been telling you that for quite some time now, but you insist.

I'm glad that you have been supposedly telling me this for quite some time now especially since you prefer not to post your own equations.

All well and fine. I've sent my formula on to others who I'm quite sure prefer to work in a team atmosphere and will either back up or correct my equations.

Thank you for your assistance to the membership who read this forum.

BTW some of those individuals are already agreeing that US should maybe NOT be included in the formula.

 

[NYer]

I'm glad that you have been supposedly telling me this for quite some time now especially since you prefer not to post your own equations.

All well and fine. I've sent my formula on to others who I'm quite sure prefer to work in a team atmosphere and will either back up or correct my equations.

Thank you for your assistance to the membership who read this forum.

 
I'm not the one posting wrong information about how much they can expect to get. Your numbers are wrong, your equations are wrong and therefore your conclusions are wrong.
 
It will be closer to approximately $1.10 from what we're making now. ($23 + $1.10 = $24.10)

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm not the one posting wrong information about how much they can expect to get. Your numbers are wrong, your equations are wrong and therefore your conclusions are wrong.
 
It will be closer to approximately $1.10 from what we're making now. ($23 + $1.10 = $24.10)

Ok you know who Charlie Brown is on this forum I guess? I've sent my equations on to him and others and if I am wrong I have no problem with accepting that.

You will notice (maybe) that I posted my formula as a question to either be discussed or corrected. I'm not arrogant or egotistical to assume I have to always be right. I prefer to be able to get my head through doorways without it having to be pushed from behind.

 

[NYer]

Ok you know who Charlie Brown is on this forum I guess? I've sent my equations on to him and others and if I am wrong I have no problem with accepting that.

You will notice (maybe) that I posted my formula as a question to either be discussed or corrected. I'm not arrogant or egotistical to assume I have to always be right. I prefer to be able to get my head through doorways without it having to be pushed from behind.

 
And I answered your question. You're wrong and the number will be at around a $1.10 increase.
 
Been telling you to stop telling people how much they'll get if you don't know. Maybe you should have done the research before posting. Nothing like confusing everyone when you're not sure about something.
 
Nice work.

 

[NYer]

Ok since someone asked this on another thread for mechanics. Let's do a few equations here and see what we come up with for Fleet?

Let's start with the industry averaging and I'm asking if people think this is correct?

TOP BASE FORMULAS: With .75 added to UAL longevity and .30 added to AA longevity

AA $23.78 contractual raise before averaging.
----------------
UAL $25.35
DL $25.28
US $23.48

IF I'm right as I read the contract US should no longer be added into the averaging formula since the company has gained the single operating certificate? So without US in the equation averaging UAL and DL comes out to $25.31 as the new TOP Base rate in September? Thoughts? If US is or winds up being included in the formula that comes out to $24.70.

Now the company has been stating 7% above the TOP Delta BASE rate. $25.28 + 7% = $27.04 IF that's ultimately what our negotiators settle on at the end of JCBA talks and we vote it in.

 

 
You want to know where you're wrong? OK
 
Where did you get $25.28 for Delta?
 
1--US is still part of the equation.
 
2--The average is of the 3 airlines not just Delta and United.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
And I answered your question. You're wrong and the number will be at around a $1.10 increase.
 
Been telling you to stop telling people how much they'll get if you don't know. Maybe you should have done the research before posting. Nothing like confusing everyone when you're not sure about something.
 
Nice work.

So you consider asking "questions" and opening up conversations for debate to be wrong since you say it is without placing up your equations on how you reached your conclusions? Good debates which it seems is something that you want to engage in have point/counterpoints for the audience or moderators to asses a victor. Personally though I don't feel discussing finances to be something that either of us should be looking for a check mark in the win column on though.

When I met Kurt Vonnegut back in High School he said I should continue with my writing. He never said I should become a Mathematician.  

 

[WeAAsles]

 
You want to know where you're wrong? OK

There we go. Thank you.
 
Where did you get $25.28 for Delta?

Kev just posted it on a Delta thread just the other day. The number I gave you months ago apparently did not include the 4% they just got. Kev is a ramper at Delta and stated the rate is $25.28 now.
 
1--US is still part of the equation.

You are correct that I am sure the Company will argue that point but look at the language about UAL/CAL and how they only used a supported higher rate for the two in their example formula. That's why I believe at least an argument (or Grievance) can be made that they should no longer be included in the formula as Legacy AA members enjoy a .30 longevity advantage over their IAM counterparts? (Note Question mark)
 
2--The average is of the 4 airlines not just Delta and United.

It appeared to me that in the example again and I did do the example formula backwards, that they only averaged UAL/CAL, DL and US when they came out with their final number. They divided by 3 and then added that amount to our base after the 2.1%.

If we stick with your formula though and US is included with the new rate of Delta (adding their 4%) I come up with (still divided by 3 rather than 2) with $24.70. Do your math again with the new quoted DL rate of $25.28. Whatever the percentage winds up being of course goes across the board when going down the payscale. ( example if it's 9% then 9% gets added to each step)

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW if we are to add all the top rates and simply divide by 4 we get a figure of $24.47. That's ALL the top rates including longevity with both the AA and US 2.1% included which equals $97.89/4 = $24.47

Note the formula on page 24 Example: $24.64 $24.11 $22.48 which equals when divided by 3, $23.74. The formula does not include AA into the averaging rather it takes the $23.74 and subtracts from the rate quoted after our raise at the time to $22.82 (Base plus .30)

OK though as I look at it the divide was by 3 and not adding AA in the equation BUT they do have the longevity as a separate line item which changes my total just a little by incorporating it into the rates. At the time in the formula they averaged longevity to be .13. UAL has a max of .75 and AA a max of .30 which makes that average 52.5 cents.

  http://twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/aa_FleetServiceAgreement.pdf