2015 Fleet Service Discussion

[Zom JFK]

You know what the difference between being non union and being twu is? In the twu you pay dues to an organization that uses your money to work for the company against you.

 

[WeAAsles]

I am not willing to rush into another bad deal contract simply because we don't to be odd men out. 
What exactly is the "something" you expect back? I think that not ONE concessionary item we gave will be restored.
One or two more holidays? Maybe but not our original 10.
How about two weeks vacation restored? How about one week back?  I doubt it.
Holiday pay back to double time and half?  I doubt it.
How about restoring the pathetic shift differential? maybe.
 
One thing you can count on is an increase in pay,,,,,But like the pilots and FA's, something will have to be given in return....
 
Any thoughts on what the company might want in return for an increase in pay?

I'm not as naive as you might think I am. I'm sure that the company is going to want some "Productivity" increases in that CBA. Looking at what's going on over at UAL gives me a little idea what they might want (I don't want to go over again why that exists and how that happened)

I read contracts and I interpret them as well and try to base what the cost will be from the things cut from the middle.

Had a US guy on here arguing a few months back how he wanted 2 more vacation days and how he was going to vote no because that wasn't there. When I did the math for him it came out to just .10 cents per hour for the year that he wanted to hold firm on and chuck everything else. I think I got through to that guy?

When I get something to vote on I'll absolutely have a calculator at the ready and be doing formulas. But from what I've seen so far on two contracts, both of them I would have voted YES for. Like I told you before I don't care if in total value someone out there is making more than me. Good for them.

 

[WeAAsles]

You know what the difference between being non union and being twu is? In the twu you pay dues to an organization that uses your money to work for the company against you.

If you are in Fleet Service tell that to the currently about 35% of "Ready Reserves" that are working over at Delta.

 

[Zom JFK]

Don't get me wrong. I am a union man. I just don't really see the twu (at AA) as a union. It's more like an obscenity to unionism.

 

[ChockJockey]

I am not willing to rush into another bad deal contract simply because we don't to be odd men out. 
What exactly is the "something" you expect back? I think that not ONE concessionary item we gave will be restored.
One or two more holidays? Maybe but not our original 10.
How about two weeks vacation restored? How about one week back?  I doubt it.
Holiday pay back to double time and half?  I doubt it.
How about restoring the pathetic shift differential? maybe.
 
One thing you can count on is an increase in pay,,,,,But like the pilots and FA's, something will have to be given in return....
 
Any thoughts on what the company might want in return for an increase in pay?

 
In the case of fleet service, what difference will it make to the content of the JCBA or its ratification process who the bargaining agent is, Alliance or otherwise?  These aren't Section 6 negotiations.
 
This is what I don't understand, according to some here the TWU is dishonorable, despicable, worthless, worse that worthless, smelly, and just plain awful and they'd be willing to go to court putting off a JCBA for months or years....just so they can keep it as their sole bargaining agent?  That's what trips me out about this industry, things get so convoluted and people so turned around they start passionately fighting against their own best interests; they're willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of dollars in compensation (hundreds of thousands in the case of pilots), millions in legal fees, and years of bitter litigation in courts where nothing is ever resolved, and this all for the sake of principle or the laughable claim that some vague though much superior contract can somehow come out of it eventually.  Really, are people this adamant about being represented by one acronym instead of two that they're willing to throw away so much?

 

[AANOTOK]

 
In the case of fleet service, what difference will it make to the content of the JCBA or its ratification process who the bargaining agent is, Alliance or otherwise?  These aren't Section 6 negotiations.
 
This is what I don't understand, according to some here the TWU is dishonorable, despicable, worthless, worse that worthless, smelly, and just plain awful and they'd be willing to go to court putting off a JCBA for months or years....just so they can keep it as their sole bargaining agent?  That's what trips me out about this industry, things get so convoluted and people so turned around they start passionately fighting against their own best interests; they're willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of dollars in compensation (hundreds of thousands in the case of pilots), millions in legal fees, and years of bitter litigation in courts where nothing is ever resolved, and this all for the sake of principle or the laughable claim that some vague though much superior contract can somehow come out of it eventually.  Really, are people this adamant about being represented by one acronym instead of two that they're willing to throw away so much?

I haven't even had a say in the Association and may not, but that hasn't prevented the squabbles to already cost me a 4% raise as of Jan.5th. Unless they (Assoc, TWU or IAM) secure a retro clause, that is money I have lost. From that alone there is the right to complain about the Assoc. And I am fleet.

 

[ChockJockey]

I haven't even had a say in the Association and may not, but that hasn't prevented the squabbles to already cost me a 4% raise as of Jan.5th. Unless they (Assoc, TWU or IAM) secure a retro clause, that is money I have lost. From that alone there is the right to complain about the Assoc. And I am fleet.

 
Is it the squabbles that cost you the 4% or is it the NMB's inability to make a speedy ruling?  Are you convinced that had we instead held a representative election (likely a dirty and expensive one) we'd already have a JCBA + 4% by now?  Hasn't Parker said that for those work groups yet to negotiate the 4% will be added into the company's proposal?  And finally, are you so opposed to the Association you would support litigation seeking to force a representational election if it would delay your getting a JCBA by six months?  Two years?
 
I personally don't feel as though I lost any 4%, I never had it to begin with, and likely would not have by now Association or otherwise.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
In the case of fleet service, what difference will it make to the content of the JCBA or its ratification process who the bargaining agent is, Alliance or otherwise?  These aren't Section 6 negotiations.
 
This is what I don't understand, according to some here the TWU is dishonorable, despicable, worthless, worse that worthless, smelly, and just plain awful and they'd be willing to go to court putting off a JCBA for months or years....just so they can keep it as their sole bargaining agent?  That's what trips me out about this industry, things get so convoluted and people so turned around they start passionately fighting against their own best interests; they're willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of dollars in compensation (hundreds of thousands in the case of pilots), millions in legal fees, and years of bitter litigation in courts where nothing is ever resolved, and this all for the sake of principle or the laughable claim that some vague though much superior contract can somehow come out of it eventually.  Really, are people this adamant about being represented by one acronym instead of two that they're willing to throw away so much?

Chock almost every single poster you have read on these threads lately who is bashing either the TWU or the IAM is a Mechanic. It's what they do rather than talk about the situations that brought us all backwards which was concessions and Bankruptcies. They have an agenda and a mission to get in a group called AMFA and reality and honesty aren't going to get in the way of that hopeful progress.

And to answer your last question, yes some of them are. But they are in the extreme minority. This forum doesn't speak for the majority. There ability to not get the Union they want for over 50 years now tells you who the real majority is.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Is it the squabbles that cost you the 4% or is it the NMB's inability to make a speedy ruling?  Are you convinced that had we instead held a representative election (likely a dirty and expensive one) we'd already have a JCBA + 4% by now?  Hasn't Parker said that for those work groups yet to negotiate the 4% will be added into the company's proposal?  And finally, are you so opposed to the Association you would support litigation seeking to force a representational election if it would delay your getting a JCBA by six months?  Two years?
 
I personally don't feel as though I lost any 4%, I never had it to begin with, and likely would not have by now Association or otherwise.

You reasonable guys haven't been on this thread enough lately? Where the hell you all been?

 

[WeAAsles]

I haven't even had a say in the Association and may not, but that hasn't prevented the squabbles to already cost me a 4% raise as of Jan.5th. Unless they (Assoc, TWU or IAM) secure a retro clause, that is money I have lost. From that alone there is the right to complain about the Assoc. And I am fleet.

Ok AANOTOK you do remember that we were waiting for the IAM to secure a contract for their members that will benefit all of us for 9 months from the time the Association was announced right? Pretty much just after that happened the Association filed for SCS and that is STILL what we are waiting for.

So to you now it's the Associations fault that the company didn't give us "The Carrot" 4% raise that they gave others except those without a JCBA? 

C'mon you have to be smart enough to understand that the company is going to USE that 4% to pressure the Association to come to terms. It's people like yourself who will be screaming their collective heads off to HURRY UP and get the job done. Rush Rush Rush.

Gimme a break. Open your eyes.

 

[AANOTOK]

 
Is it the squabbles that cost you the 4% or is it the NMB's inability to make a speedy ruling?  Are you convinced that had we instead held a representative election (likely a dirty and expensive one) we'd already have a JCBA + 4% by now?  Hasn't Parker said that for those work groups yet to negotiate the 4% will be added into the company's proposal?  And finally, are you so opposed to the Association you would support litigation seeking to force a representational election if it would delay your getting a JCBA by six months?  Two years?
 
I personally don't feel as though I lost any 4%, I never had it to begin with, and likely would not have by now Association or otherwise.

1. The squabbles because that it what has caused the NMB's inability to rule quickly. If the TWU/IAM had not started "squabbling" after they agreed to the new organization, there is no doubt we would have had a ruling, election by now. Yes, if the TWU or the IAM or even the Association had been designated by now, we would have been a helll of a lot closer than where we are...the pilots and flight attendants had issues and solved them. They both have contracts TODAY.
2. To say you don't feel you have lost 4% because you never had it is quite honestly a ridiculous comment. You already have that 4% raise, you are just not allowed to collect on it because of no fault of your own. Why don't you go ahead and give me your stock then if you haven't cashed it in. It's just paper and it's potential cash you never had...I will gladly take it.
 
Listen, I have been against the Association from day one because IMO I felt it would cause problems, CONTROL problems and the members would suffer. That has come to fruition and there isn't even a ruling yet. Secondly, I am man enough to state when I'm wrong or when I lose. I accept the outcome without filing lawsuits and stomping my feet. But at the moment, I seem to be right.

 

[AANOTOK]

Ok AANOTOK you do remember that we were waiting for the IAM to secure a contract for their members that will benefit all of us for 9 months from the time the Association was announced right? Pretty much just after that happened the Association filed for SCS and that is STILL what we are waiting for.

So to you now it's the Associations fault that the company didn't give us "The Carrot" 4% raise that they gave others except those without a JCBA? 

C'mon you have to be smart enough to understand that the company is going to USE that 4% to pressure the Association to come to terms. It's people like yourself who will be screaming their collective heads off to HURRY UP and get the job done. Rush Rush Rush.

Gimme a break. Open your eyes.

Read post #251...and I will add that once again your inability to lay any type of blame on your union is hilarious. C'mon man, they are not God, the mob or even the pres, they do make mistakes and blinders must be removed to see them! But, we have been down this road before (you and I) and I'm done beating a dead horse...type away bro!

 

[WeAAsles]

Read post #251...and I will add that once again your inability to lay any type of blame on your union is hilarious. C'mon man, they are not God, the mob or even the pres, they do make mistakes and blinders must be removed to see them! But, we have been down this road before (you and I) and I'm done beating a dead horse...type away bro!

Holy crap of course they make mistakes. I could probably write a book about the mistakes I think they've made over my career. But mistakes are in the past and I hope every day that the individuals who came up from the ranks that are a part of it now make less and less as time goes by.

So what blame do you want me to lay on them? Your version of what you think they should be blamed for or can I have my own opinions on those without disappointing you because they might not match up to yours?

You don't like the Association and think it's better for brother to fight brother. Yea OK, duly noted.

 

[ChockJockey]

1. The squabbles because that it what has caused the NMB's inability to rule quickly. If the TWU/IAM had not started "squabbling" after they agreed to the new organization, there is no doubt we would have had a ruling, election by now. Yes, if the TWU or the IAM or even the Association had been designated by now, we would have been a helll of a lot closer than where we are...the pilots and flight attendants had issues and solved them. They both have contracts TODAY.

 
I'm not so sure a representational election would have or will go so smoothly or quickly and wouldn't cause a lot of acrimony between the fleet groups.  I also don't know if the company would have been willing to negotiate our JCBA until they'd wrapped up the pilots and FA's.  Are these squabbles that are delaying the NMB being instigated by the unions themselves or by locals or members who oppose the Association, or is it a bit of both?
 

2. To say you don't feel you have lost 4% because you never had it is quite honestly a ridiculous comment. You already have that 4% raise, you are just not allowed to collect on it because of no fault of your own. Why don't you go ahead and give me your stock then if you haven't cashed it in. It's just paper and it's potential cash you never had...I will gladly take it.

 
Well I guess it's a matter of semantics then.  To my thinking I would first have to have something before losing it, and my pay stubs attest to there being no 4% raise, and last time I checked rhetorical assurances of increased compensation from CEO's isn't recognized as legal tender.  I never received a raise I wasn't expecting, so I have nothing to be angry or bitter about.  I've never owned AA or US stock.
 

Listen, I have been against the Association from day one because IMO I felt it would cause problems, CONTROL problems and the members would suffer. That has come to fruition and there isn't even a ruling yet. Secondly, I am man enough to state when I'm wrong or when I lose. I accept the outcome without filing lawsuits and stomping my feet. But at the moment, I seem to be right.

 
Control problems are inevitable in the case of a merger I suppose and they will be there in some shape or form no matter which way we go.  Hopefully we get a ruling of some kind soon.

 

[ChockJockey]

You reasonable guys haven't been on this thread enough lately? Where the hell you all been?

 
Between the mechanics' orgiastic amplified echo-chambering of the victimizations they've suffered and WT's ultra-autismo turbo-trolling I haven't had the effort or patience to sift through the forums much recently.