2015 AMT Discussion

[700UW]

Yes he can have one day as a lead at AA but 30 years as a mechanic and then he gets 30 years as a lead only working one day as a lead.
 
Its totally different how US does it.
 
So you could have 20 years working as a lead, a guy at AA with one day as a lead, but is senior to you as a mechanic will be senior to you as a lead with only working one day.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

OK.
 
We have always separated company and occupational seniority also.  In my case, I have Utility time, Mechanic time, and Lead time.  I'm super senior as a Utility, in the top 10% as a Mechanic, and so junior as a Lead, I can't hold a Lead position, nor do I want to.
 
Am I to understand that the AA people do not want me (LUS) to carry my Utility and Lead time over to a combined list?
 
Also, is it true at AA, you could have 30 years as a AMT, bid a Lead job today and be considered to have 30 years Lead time by only being a Lead for one day?

We don't keep lead or inspector time at AA.  So that is something else for them to decide.  If you were on the AA seniority list your time in the AMT classification would be your occupational seniority and that is where you would be placed on the seniority list.  Your Utility time would only count towards your company time so your info would look like this:
Occupational seniority (This would be used to bid jobs inside the AMT classification as well as shifts and days off) and your Company seniority would also be there which would include your Utility time.  (This would be used to pick vacation).  Since we do not recognize higher capacity seniority (Inspector or Lead) that would not be noted.  As you can see, if your Utility time was added to your AMT time that would put you ahead of people who have been AMTs longer than you which is what we don't want to happen.  As far as inspector and lead seniority that was brought up in a previous survey and the TWU was against it.  But seniority does you no good anymore for a lead (Crew Chief) job bid.  There is an interview process now with two union and three company people.  The union people vote for the one with the seniority and the company people vote for the one with the brownest nose and since they outnumber the union people that is who gets the job.  Hopefully this process is discontinued in our next TA.  Only time will tell but the general opinion is that if you are on the AMT seniority list then only your time as an AMT should count for seniority purposes.  This seems to those of us at LAA as the only fair way.

 

[MetalMover]

 
 
The day they punched in as a mechanic is the day their mechanic seniority started.
 
 

Ok...MECHANIC time........Does this mean any mechanic? If you hire in as an automotive mechanic and move to aircraft mechanic...is he/she considered the same mechanic and therefore keeps ALL his time as one? Is it the same in reverse?

 

[700UW]

Only if they are qualified in GSE or they have an A&P

Many of the A&Ps who were GSE qualified bumped into GSE to avoid leaving the station. At PMUS there are not title 1, 2, or 3.

 

[dfw gen]

Quick question - when was the association officially certified on AA for mechanics?
 
Just need the month
 
Thanks
 
TSH

its been 1 year and 3 months since everyone BUT association members got a 4% raise
an and 10 months since the fix was in on the association with NO VOTE
 
so the answer is May of 2015
 
 
pressure does seem to be building the pilots are bitching and dougie is apologizing. in DFW maintenance management has actually had a novel idea ask the crew chiefs what they want. but as far as improvements none. still no equipment except the two f250's management uses for their own personnel transportation. other then that no changes the beatings continue.........

 

[dfw gen]

Ok...MECHANIC time........Does this mean any mechanic? If you hire in as an automotive mechanic and move to aircraft mechanic...is he/she considered the same mechanic and therefore keeps ALL his time as one? Is it the same in reverse?

the answer is yes if he is qualified a mechanic is a mechanic. so if you want to bid automotive you can if you are in automotive an have an a&p you can bid aircraft maintenance. at the new us/americawest low cost airways a mechanic is a mechanic is a mechanic. you have the ability to be marginalized and disregarded in any dept!

 

[swamt]

Just to add a little.  It seems to work the same here at SWA as it does at AA.  A mechanic is a mechanic no matter what type of mechanic; Aircraft, GSE, or even plant maint. mechanics, not sure where or how the facilities mechanics will end up falling in but, The union is working towards getting them on the regular mechanics list and the co is fighting tooth and nail over it. Since they were just brought into the union a short time ago not sure where they will land. But as it already is set they should end up on the same list. Also there is no lead and inspector time kept.  A 30 year mechanic that bids a lead/insp. job, will take what ever is left over after the leads get first choice of original bid. If there is more than one slot available between 2 mechanics coming into the lead class, then they would use their seniority between the two to award the positions.  Once this original lead bid is done, the 30 year mechanic will exercise his 30 years seniority on all lead bids thereafter.  
I believe the biggest difference with the LUS/IAM method is once this 30 year mechanics bids and wins the award of lead or inspector, he now begins a new lead/insp. seniority list with his first day as a lead being day one of seniority and continuing on after that. He cannot use his 30 years as a mechanic in the lead/insp bidding.  To me this is taking seniority from someone and should not be done like that. You should always carry your seniority where ever you go as a mechanic.  This will be a very big change for the mechanics from LUS.  Unless there is a fence put up it will in fact change big time if it goes the TWU/AA way...

 

[700UW]

How is it taking seniority away when the guy hasnt worked one day as a lead and the other guy who is junior to him as a mechanic but been working as a lead for 20 years?
 
You take away the seniority for the guy who maybe moved, or worked undesirable shifts to get lead time and you want a guy who never worked as a lead to walk in the door and be senior?
 
I dont agree with it.

 

[Real tired]

We don't keep lead or inspector time at AA.  So that is something else for them to decide.  If you were on the AA seniority list your time in the AMT classification would be your occupational seniority and that is where you would be placed on the seniority list.  Your Utility time would only count towards your company time so your info would look like this:
Occupational seniority (This would be used to bid jobs inside the AMT classification as well as shifts and days off) and your Company seniority would also be there which would include your Utility time.  (This would be used to pick vacation).  Since we do not recognize higher capacity seniority (Inspector or Lead) that would not be noted.  As you can see, if your Utility time was added to your AMT time that would put you ahead of people who have been AMTs longer than you which is what we don't want to happen.  As far as inspector and lead seniority that was brought up in a previous survey and the TWU was against it.  But seniority does you no good anymore for a lead (Crew Chief) job bid.  There is an interview process now with two union and three company people.  The union people vote for the one with the seniority and the company people vote for the one with the brownest nose and since they outnumber the union people that is who gets the job.  Hopefully this process is discontinued in our next TA.  Only time will tell but the general opinion is that if you are on the AMT seniority list then only your time as an AMT should count for seniority purposes.  This seems to those of us at LAA as the only fair way.

Now I understand your concern.  But it doesn't work that way !!  And it never should !!
 
We don't "add" time to the AMT seniority classification.  Here's another example to understand:
 
Say I hired in as a Utility in 2000, went to school, got my license, and bid an AMT job in 2010,  that's where I would fall in on the combined list.  2010 AMT time.  Not 2000 when I hired in as a Utility.  There is no "adding".  So anyone hired as an AMT in 2009 at AA and US would be senior to me.
 
But.......
 
2000 would be where I would be slotted in on the Utility list for Utility bids ONLY.  And I would choose my vacation from my first day on the job, in both Utility and AMT, from my start date of 2000.
 
Now say, after I made my probation, I bid a Leads job in 2012.  That is where I would fall in the combined Leads list for a Lead bid ONLY.  2012 not 2000.
 
I realize you people have always "done it that way", but it's the only fair way.  This TWU Lead interview process, along with the so called A26 test I have heard of when bidding from job to job, only benefits the company and is totally anti-union, in my opinion. 
 
The hypothetical one day on the job as a Lead with 30 years as an AMT, equals 30 years as a Lead is the most convoluted, company oriented system I ever heard of in my 37 years. Don't let me start on some of the most screwed up paper work I have EVER seen, along with that goofy "IAW" policy, that's all for another thread.  But you people have always done it that way.  I realize that.
 
You guys at AA ain't dancing alone here now, though.  There two at this sock hop, and you better hope it goes a little more toward the IAM way we do the seniority thing, because between our two work groups, together we have lost so much, that seniority is the only thing we have left.
 
Seems like there might be some pain ahead.

 

[Real tired]

Just to add a little.  It seems to work the same here at SWA as it does at AA.  A mechanic is a mechanic no matter what type of mechanic; Aircraft, GSE, or even plant maint. mechanics, not sure where or how the facilities mechanics will end up falling in but, The union is working towards getting them on the regular mechanics list and the co is fighting tooth and nail over it. Since they were just brought into the union a short time ago not sure where they will land. But as it already is set they should end up on the same list. Also there is no lead and inspector time kept.  A 30 year mechanic that bids a lead/insp. job, will take what ever is left over after the leads get first choice of original bid. If there is more than one slot available between 2 mechanics coming into the lead class, then they would use their seniority between the two to award the positions.  Once this original lead bid is done, the 30 year mechanic will exercise his 30 years seniority on all lead bids thereafter.  
I believe the biggest difference with the LUS/IAM method is once this 30 year mechanics bids and wins the award of lead or inspector, he now begins a new lead/insp. seniority list with his first day as a lead being day one of seniority and continuing on after that. He cannot use his 30 years as a mechanic in the lead/insp bidding.  To me this is taking seniority from someone and should not be done like that. You should always carry your seniority where ever you go as a mechanic.  This will be a very big change for the mechanics from LUS.  Unless there is a fence put up it will in fact change big time if it goes the TWU/AA way...

See, here again I disagree.  I guess because I have always done it that way.
 
But it's not "taking seniority" from anyone.  It's a Premium position with more pay.  You never lose your AMT time, or have anything added to it.  You have to build "tenure" in your premium position just like a teacher.
 
In your example, think of it this way:
 
Say I had 5 years as City Councilman,  5 years as Mayor, 5 years as Governor, then I got elected as President.  Would I have 15 years as President the first day I was elected?
 
It just doesn't work that way. 
 
I really can not conceive how people at both Southwest and American can believe that an LAA AMT with 30 years as an AMT and one day on the job as a Lead, can displace a  25 year AMT from LUS with 25 years as a Lead.
 
With us, a Utility is a Utility, in their own classification and seniority date.  An AMT, including Auto Shop, and Plant Maintenance, also including Welding, Paint Shop and so on, is an AMT with their own seniority date.  The Premium positions, including MOC, Lead, Inspection entail three more separate seniority dates in each  separate department.
 
It called union seniority and it has to be earned, not given to someone by a company interview brown nose process.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

its been 1 year and 3 months since everyone BUT association members got a 4% raise
an and 10 months since the fix was in on the association with NO VOTE
 
so the answer is May of 2015
 
 
pressure does seem to be building the pilots are bitching and dougie is apologizing. in DFW maintenance management has actually had a novel idea ask the crew chiefs what they want. but as far as improvements none. still no equipment except the two f250's management uses for their own personnel transportation. other then that no changes the beatings continue.........

 
Thanks for the info
 
TSH

 

[1AA]

How is it taking seniority away when the guy hasnt worked one day as a lead and the other guy who is junior to him as a mechanic but been working as a lead for 20 years?
 
You take away the seniority for the guy who maybe moved, or worked undesirable shifts to get lead time and you want a guy who never worked as a lead to walk in the door and be senior?
 
I dont agree with it.

It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. It does not affect you because your not a AMT and not employed by either company. On the issue of a automotive guy bumping into aircraft maintenance after he has never worked or did work aircraft maintenance many years back. Many things have to take place. First he has to satisfy the FAR of being current. You can have a license but you have to use it within so many months or your not current. Then you have to catch up on all your class room training from logbooks to aircraft general familiarization on all fleet types worked. So it's a long process once you cross over. At AA you do not bring your time into aircraft maintenance for bidding shifts and days off. Just company time for vacation bidding and pay compensation.

 

[700UW]

It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. It does not affect you because your not a AMT and not employed by either company. On the issue of a automotive guy bumping into aircraft maintenance after he has never worked or did work aircraft maintenance many years back. Many things have to take place. First he has to satisfy the FAR of being current. You can have a license but you have to use it within so many months or your not current. Then you have to catch up on all your class room training from logbooks to aircraft general familiarization on all fleet types worked. So it's a long process once you cross over. At AA you do not bring your time into aircraft maintenance for bidding shifts and days off. Just company time for vacation bidding and pay compensation.

You really need to get over the fact that I post here,  Im not going anywhere, so get use to the idea, and it does matter to me as my son's mother is out there at a lead, and I many friends and colleagues, so stick to the topic and stop making it about. me.
 
And its not fair to make someone who has never worked a day in the classification, senior to someone who has 20 years, thats not what unionism is all about and Real Tired said it best.
 
This isnt TWA and that wont ever happen to an IAM represented group again.
 
 
 
 

 

[1AA]

You really need to get over the fact that I post here,  Im not going anywhere, so get use to the idea, and it does matter to me as my son's mother is out there at a lead, and I many friends and colleagues, so stick to the topic and stop making it about. me.
 
And its not fair to make someone who has never worked a day in the classification, senior to someone who has 20 years, thats not what unionism is all about and Real Tired said it best.
 
This isnt TWA and that wont ever happen to an IAM represented group again.
 
And just a friendly reminder for you from the moderators:

Whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant to us because your not in the fight. Just an outsider looking in. The TWU way protects seniority but also protects individuals from playing the system. We had this before we lost building cleaners jumping into Aircraft Maintenance with 15 years cleaning toilets and walla they were holding day shift weekends off with no experience.

 

[DallasConehead]

If class seniority is used then there will only be junior crew chiefs. A guys with 30 years isn't going to bid a crew chief job so he can go to mids with tw off. Here's the problem with only having junior chiefs. They aren't as versed in all things but for arguments sake, lets say they are. Very rarely have I seen a junior man stand up to management when they are making stupid decisions, decisions which affect the flow of work which cause disruptions in schedule and decreased morale.  Occasionally is does happen but not often.
 
You end up with stupid supervisors running over the work force, and the work force constantly being cowed.  The CC is a valuable buffer against this if they choose to do so which a senior guy will more so the a junior one. 
 
One could say, well who cares, let them manage. A lot of chiefs do this, they tire of arguing with idiots, I don't blame them. 
 
The problems arise when mgt makes a stupid decision that affect a mans certifications, i.e. safety,  in this case the AMT has to stand up for himself instead of the CC. If the AMT is incapable or unwilling now you can have serious safety issues along with schedule issues on top of morale issues on top of a crew not having confidence in the crew chief. Which cause a continual spiral downward in the entire operation.
 
But, who am I to say.  Just a:
 
Greedy whining overpaid lazy Airline Mechanic