2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[T5towbar]

With all due respect, putting the cart before the horse is assuming people would just prefer this alliance, as opposed to choosing between the 2 incumbent unions...

I know this is where I split from many of you, but IMO, This whole thing sends absolutely the wrong message to labor as a whole.

 
I don't know Kev. I kind of like the idea of an "association". I just hope that personal ego's and other things don't get in the way of negotiating and bargaining. And after a contract is done, who will get the credit or blame. And the two major questions is (A.) an election (which will get very nasty if a substandard contract is delivered), and (B.) the biggest elephant in the room: DUES!!!   And also a side issue is how is AMFA going to play this? Will they try to splinter off the MX?
 
But both the unions should put differences and egos to the side to send a strong unified message to management and deliver a good contract for their members. That should be priority number one. This TWU/IAM Association is a very good idea if done correctly, and can be something great if a good contract which is "Industry Leading".  That can also help the rest of us, since the IAM has seen their mistake with the UA contract; and what the TWU will do for the WN members in their upcoming talks (I don't know when they will be).
 
Just my opinion........ 

 

[WeAAsles]

Let's add a little bit of perspective into this conversation. The "mini" raid was initiated against us because in all honesty the TWU already holds the over 50% criteria for there not to have had to be any vote at all. They could have filed as a single union and the IAM would have needed to get enough cards to be on the ballot. Would that have happened? Personally I think they would have had enough time to make that happen. Who would win that election doesn't matter though. And how much money one side has over the other doesn't matter either.

What does matter is how much "HATE" there would have been from those who lost. And don't kid yourselves either that this wouldn't have been ugly. We all know the stories of those classic representational battles. So someone stepped in and said, NO! You are not going to do this because this is not what labor needs and does not help anyone. I personally agree 100%. I do not want to fight against people who I should be fighting alongside.

Kev you think that this sends a bad message to labor as a whole? I very much disagree. I think this association sent a shiver down the spine of management. They absolutely do not want us working together for the common cause of the membership. They want dissension. The animosity that a representational battle would have given them would have lasted for decades. 

The message these alliances should send to all Labor organizations is that there is a better way. Reach out your "effin" hands and get to know each other. We have real enemies and they're not each other. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim,
 
What would be the point if the Alliance wasn't successful in the NMB vote? First things first. We don't need to put the cart before the horse. We can't assume anything and the focus needs to be on securing the Alliance. 
 
P. Rez

The focus needs to be on not just securing the alliance Pat but getting people excited about it, opening their minds, and seeing the real opportunities that it can have if we give it our full support. I think the basic tenant of the alliance is a good start but there needs to be so much more to it in the future. Much more cooperation and sharing of ideas and resources.

We have people like Gary Peterson who want to tear it apart before it even get's off the ground. In the end it may be up to us to not let him get away with it.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
The Alliance never made sense to me, although I understand its intentions to avoid a fight between labor groups.  Why would the TWU who is the much larger group agree to lose its Membership to some 3rd group in an "alliance", not to mention, picking-up a sizable number IAM members?  If it isn't a loss of Membership for either IAM or TWU, then we are having support the Administrative overhead of both organizations, in addition, to whatever additional expenses having this alliance?

Jester read the Alliance agreement. There is very little to almost no overhead except for maybe the light bill and lunches served at those meetings.
 
I think eventually you are going to see some grand compromise where the mechanics are traded to the IAM in exchange with the TWU for fleet service... assuming the mechanics can figure out their own internal union problems.  I think the grumbling is beginning to foment to the top, and more it will be heard.

I don't think this will happen and if it did it would be a screaming shame. It would send a message to people who support the ideology behind the alliance that no, the two organizations cannot learn to work together and play nice with each other. Corporations and their pocket politicians would be laughing their collective assses off at all of us.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
I don't know Kev. "I kind of like the idea of an "association". I just hope that personal ego's and other things don't get in the way of negotiating and bargaining. And after a contract is done, who will get the credit or blame. And the two major questions is (A.) an election (which will get very nasty if a substandard contract is delivered), and (B.) the biggest elephant in the room: DUES!!!   And also a side issue is how is AMFA going to play this? Will they try to splinter off the MX?

I highlighted that line T5 because that's the kind of line that needs to start ingraining itself into people's heads. And AMFA is a distraction, nothing more.
 
But both the unions should put differences and egos to the side to send a strong unified message to management and deliver a good contract for their members. That should be priority number one. This TWU/IAM Association is a very good idea if done correctly, and can be something great if a good contract which is "Industry Leading".  That can also help the rest of us, since the IAM has seen their mistake with the UA contract; and what the TWU will do for the WN members in their upcoming talks (I don't know when they will be).

Good comment.
 
Just my opinion........ 

 

[Kev3188]

Kev I think the two unions just decided to split or share the pie rather than fight over it. That's not a disagreement with what you are saying  just my view of what they did.

I hear ya. I just read as being too afraid to fight, and taking an easy way out.
 

 
 

But both the unions should put differences and egos to the side to send a strong unified message to management and deliver a good contract for their members.

Right now the message being telegraphed by each union is "we don't think our respective memberships will vote for us, so we're not going to stand up for them."
 
 

I do not want to fight against people who I should be fighting alongside.

With ya 100% on that...

Kev you think that this sends a bad message to labor as a whole? I very much disagree. I think this association sent a shiver down the spine of management. They absolutely do not want us working together for the common cause of the membership. They want dissension.

And they're gonna get it. Hand delivered. A splintered group- especially prior to a JCBA- is an easy one to drive wedges in...

The message these alliances should send to all Labor organizations is that there is a better way. Reach out your "effin" hands and get to know each other. We have real enemies and they're not each other.

Again, agree that the need for a "better way" is very real & very urgent. Disagree that this path is it...

 

[WeAAsles]

I hear ya. I just read as being too afraid to fight, and taking an easy way out.

Maybe and more than likely probable. But however it came about is irrelevant now. They BOTH need to learn to trust each other and begin to foster and build friendships. All those in leadership positions are people just like you and I who fought from the ground up to get to where they are now.

People make their own problems in life and it's those same people who can solve them.  
 

Right now the message being telegraphed by each union is "we don't think our respective memberships will vote for us, so we're not going to stand up for them."

Maybe true. Seems to me that too many people have lost faith in each other? Maybe some people need to learn to take a "leap of faith"
 
 

With ya 100% on that...


And they're gonna get it. Hand delivered. A splintered group- especially prior to a JCBA- is an easy one to drive wedges in...

Who's splintered where Kev? Are you talking about that group of kooks over on the AA pages? Those 5 or 6 AMFA folks? I'm seeing something else when I'm on this thread here.

And Kev once we get this all done and together don't think you and your people have been forgotten. We're coming for Delta next.


Again, agree that the need for a "better way" is very real & very urgent. Disagree that this path is it...

Leaders have to lead Kev. And sometimes that means taking charge whether the soldiers understand it or not.

 

[robbedagain]

I personally think it is a good idea to have the Association esp when going in for the JCBA    Now is not the time for in house fighting.   Time to let the past go and move forward   Get the Best Contract Possible in the JCBA!  

 

[Tim Nelson]

I hear ya. I just read as being too afraid to fight, and taking an easy way out.
 

 
 

Right now the message being telegraphed by each union is "we don't think our respective memberships will vote for us, so we're not going to stand up for them."
 
 

With ya 100% on that...


And they're gonna get it. Hand delivered. A splintered group- especially prior to a JCBA- is an easy one to drive wedges in...


Again, agree that the need for a "better way" is very real & very urgent. Disagree that this path is it...

The biggest problem with mergers and work groups is seniority. The Association answers that.  That's why I support the association.  Nothing else is significant since it really won't matter if its the TWU, IAM, or the association who is bargaining.  Unions do not fight any more due to a number of cultural reasons.  Moving forward, with the association, my fight is going to be against the sole IAMPF as the only option for US fleet.  It's absolutely insulting in this day and age to not bargain for 401k contributions.  On a second front, I'd like to have the option of a real part time job, and no way would I want to go part time now.  Part timers have been completely neglected by every negotiation team ever.  Paying twice medical, and getting less than half IAMPF contributions is also insulting.  That's up to 40% of our group.  This association really needs to put a part timer on the negotiations because the last NC was all full time and took care of themselves and topped out workers.  I'm going to absolutely hammer this IAMPF hostage crap.  I want money contributed into my 401k, and I'm tired of negotiation teams saying they believe in 3 prongs but then refuse to address the abysmal pension benefits/contributions.

 

[Jester]

In an unrelated matter, as there are scores of former LAS agents in PHX, there has been a great deal of buzz regarding two (soon to be former) US LAS fleet service agents involved in using their airport clearance to traffic cocaine.
 
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/3-arrested-drug-smuggling-case-mccarran
 
I think it is just a matter of time before our ease of access to SIDA becomes more restrictive and in a post-9/11 world how incomplete background checks are performed or periodically reviewed.  These weren't new hires and their living large lifestyle should have garnered someone's attention.  Rumors are that these two were no angels with known questionable activities.

 

[T5towbar]

In an unrelated matter, as there are scores of former LAS agents in PHX, there has been a great deal of buzz regarding two (soon to be former) US LAS fleet service agents involved in using their airport clearance to traffic cocaine.
 
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/3-arrested-drug-smuggling-case-mccarran
 
I think it is just a matter of time before our ease of access to SIDA becomes more restrictive and in a post-9/11 world how incomplete background checks are performed or periodically reviewed.  These weren't new hires and their living large lifestyle should have garnered someone's attention.  Rumors are that these two were no angels with known questionable activities.

Just read the story. Just plain greedy and stupid. Sooner or later, they are going to get caught. They always do. Why blow your gig for a few extra bucks? But a lot of people do it. I can see some vendor or contractor trying to do it, but these guys are topped out already. And one has a job with UPS as well as a driver?
 
But there are people who would risk their jobs for this.......just sad.

 

[P. REZ]

The biggest problem with mergers and work groups is seniority. The Association answers that.  That's why I support the association.  Nothing else is significant since it really won't matter if its the TWU, IAM, or the association who is bargaining.  Unions do not fight any more due to a number of cultural reasons.  Moving forward, with the association, my fight is going to be against the sole IAMPF as the only option for US fleet.  It's absolutely insulting in this day and age to not bargain for 401k contributions.  On a second front, I'd like to have the option of a real part time job, and no way would I want to go part time now.  Part timers have been completely neglected by every negotiation team ever.  Paying twice medical, and getting less than half IAMPF contributions is also insulting.  That's up to 40% of our group.  This association really needs to put a part timer on the negotiations because the last NC was all full time and took care of themselves and topped out workers.  I'm going to absolutely hammer this IAMPF hostage crap.  I want money contributed into my 401k, and I'm tired of negotiation teams saying they believe in 3 prongs but then refuse to address the abysmal pension benefits/contributions.

Tim,
 
I agree with the 401k match, I have stated before. I hope that the membership takes the time to state the concerns they have in the survey and the hope would be that the Negotiation Committee is successful in addressing those concerns to the fullest. Have a good Holiday weekend.
 
P. Rez

 

[P. REZ]

The focus needs to be on not just securing the alliance Pat but getting people excited about it, opening their minds, and seeing the real opportunities that it can have if we give it our full support. I think the basic tenant of the alliance is a good start but there needs to be so much more to it in the future. Much more cooperation and sharing of ideas and resources.

We have people like Gary Peterson who want to tear it apart before it even get's off the ground. In the end it may be up to us to not let him get away with it.

Agreed. Happy Labor Day Brothers and Sisters.
 
P. Rez

 

[Kev3188]

Who's splintered where Kev? Are you talking about that group of kooks over on the AA pages? Those 5 or 6 AMFA folks? I'm seeing something else when I'm on this thread here.

I'm talking about two groups (at the leadership level) that just "told" management they didn't have enough confidence to make a push to represent the combined workgroups. Now they're gonna strut into the room & expect to be taken seriously? Sorry, not seein' it.
 
 

And Kev once we get this all done and together don't think you and your people have been forgotten. We're coming for Delta next.

Bring it. Would love to see you all out there.



 

Leaders have to lead Kev. And sometimes that means taking charge whether the soldiers understand it or not.

The soldiers are the leaders...
 

I want money contributed into my 401k, and I'm tired of negotiation teams saying they believe in 3 prongs but then refuse to address the abysmal pension benefits/contributions.

401k= worker empowerment.

 

[ograc]

Kev I think the two unions just decided to split or share the pie rather than fight over it. That's not a disagreement with what you are saying  just my view of what they did.
 
I have also had it suggested to me by more than one that the IAMhas pretty much an unlimited budget to campaign with where in comparison the TWU has nickels to spend. Withever one thinks about Buffy and Sito they are good at playing the game.
I don't think a vote would be a lock for either side and you may have both getting less than 50 %

Spot on cltrat! The IAM and the TWU have agreed to co represent the combined group going forward. This agreement must be recognized by the NMB. IMO... the NMB will not recognize the newly established "Association" until a representation election is ordered and takes place among the combined Fleet Service groups. It is my understanding the choice will be union representation by the "Association" or no representation. With the signed agreement between the unions; I don't see how JCBA negotiations start until this matter is resolved. Furthermore, I do not see either union entering into JCBA talks, without the other at the table. Anyone insinuating this should be the expected strategy going forward is again being divisive and deceptive.