I too agree with "digging our heels in" to hold the co. to retro. As stated above, there other contracts with me-too's in them concerning retro. That is not our problem, that is the co's problem. They can want to call it a bonus for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only, 1- Avoid paying "full retro" to any other work group. 2- By calling it a "signing bonus" they also think they can offer a much, much reduced amount than the "full retro" therefore having a huge cost savings. Everyone I have talked to will not vote for a new contract unless the amount of the signing bonus is the same as what retro would be "PLUS" a little padding to offset the larger taxes being taken out for the title of bonus instead of retro. It is taxed at a higher rate when paid with your paycheck and it's listed as bonus. One other issue is we must jump at date of signing to what it would have been, or greater than, with retro involved. We have 5 straight days with a weekend in the middle so we better start seeing some better progress. A lot of floor talk about how long this is taking. And demanding full retro (or equaled to it with added taxes covered) is the only way to stop the co from dragging their feet for a free 4-5 years of pay freezes and this has been with every single group. We all have heard the rumors how the stock holders were going to get taken care of, and they have been, very nicely I might add, now it's time to start taken care of the employees...lineguy43 said:
WN Mechanics seek mediation
- Thread starter WNMECH
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Here's the latest update. 4 Hours from a 41/2 days? This is pathetic. I still need to filter thru the the offers and the co. wants before commenting, but, I will say the 12% bonus, 8% snap up, and just 2-3% for years 2-5 will not cut it. The bonus will be the % equal to the amount of retro, then padded a little more for the larger taxes that will come with us getting the bonuses instead of the retro (yes it is more, we and the pilots did our homework). The snap up should be what it would be if we were to have continued our last contract at 3% per year which would put it more in the range of 12% since we are going into our 4th year. The % on years 2-5 should be more than the 2-3% as offered as we are making record profits now and the co. has always givin 3% as contract extensions when times were bad or tough. I feel our 2-5 years should be more like 4-6%. All these guessing numbers and %'s are only effective if we were to have a contract by our 4th year of nego which is at 8-16-16, but the same basic format would follow. Also with the co. being so hard headed about their wants and not moving this should trigger the mediators to help with getting them to move, if not, it doesn't look like we will be having any settled contract any time this year let alone by 8-16-16. Let's get together with our fellow Pilots at the annual meeting this year. What really pisses me off is the lousy 4 hours out of 4.5 days of nego's, too slow to expect anything by the end of this year. But, I will say at least the co. has finally gave us some sort of idea what they are willing to start the pay nego at. Her's the update:
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blue collar
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They might as well keep their offer. I'm not giving up any work rules, no matter how they try to sell it. The 12% should be at least 20%, and while getting an immediate 8% (on base pay), years 2-5 should be in the range of 4-6% with no givebacks.
A reasonable expectation from both sides should be for the mediator to steer negotiations in the direction of compromise with particular emphasis on the state of the airline industry. We all know where we would be headed in an economic downturn, which seems to be no where on the horizon. I don't know what dictated the amount of face time in these sessions but 4 hours seems very unreasonable. Perhaps our negotiators could ask the mediator for a little more latitude in their updates to explain.
blue collar said:
I agree with both of you. Why should we give anything back? We are in record upon record profits with our current contract. So how can the co. show or ask from the mediators for relief? We have gave when the time was needed and now the time is not needed. The time now is to restore what we gave up during the hard times, and we are not even doing that. Get a clue SWA...Birdman said:
WeAAsles
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Not to make any comment on your jobs or work rules that I wish you well on. Have you looked at all at what the rate of inflation has been the last 10 years and its future forecast? Not to mention on pay haven't you also been at the top on that in comparison to some of your peers for the last 10 years too?blue collar said:
Again not counting the other things. If this has been your thought process on the money aspect of coming to an agreement, oh boy I think you guys are going to be waiting a long time.
We've already been waiting a long time and patiently at that. This is probably why we won't have anything this year (my opinion) with the co. sticking so hard on the wants they want and not budging it will cost them way more than what they are offering because they are asking for way too much at a time of record breaking profits, cash flow, passenger numbers and continuing to grow and expand. If they can afford to build a 145 million 850 thousand square foot training facility they can afford more than their 12%, 8%, and the lousy 2-3% for years 2-5 they are offering as well as afford to move on some of their stances, otherwise we will be waiting for another 4 years, the guys are done with giving and giving. Times are not tough right now. And for the membership to accept 2-3% when the company has always been willing to give the 3% in bad or slow times is pathetic, especially for the wants the co. is asking for. Guys, this is the same mediator that gave us our retro last time and she has even stated with the record profits SWA is experiencing NOW is the time to get retro and larger raises as Birdman has stated, the state of the airline business is at a very good time and the nego's controlled by the mediators should reflect that type of direction taken. Thx for the well wishes weAAsles, as I too wish your group to get the best they can during your nego's...WeAAsles said:
WeAAsles
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So wait a minute. Let me get this straight? You have been offered 25% in pay raises over the life of a 5 year deal? Meanwhile if I'm correct you never took any pay-cuts in the years since 9/11/2001 and I'm sure you even received some modest increases along the way?swamt said:
I'd like to know from the last time you received a raise what was the percentage you got? And from there not counting when your contract became amendable since an increase that accounts for that is absolutely owed to you, does it at least correlate to the average rate of inflation in those intervening years? Did your out of pocket medical rates go up which in turn would decrease your pricing power?
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/currentinflation.asp
What I'm getting at here is have you at least kept pace in those absolutely miserable years that the airlines went through in the first decade since 2001?
If you're overshooting your mark financially then maybe you can understand why the company is seeking relief in other areas of your contract? Profits aside, the company has other responsibilities for those profits besides their workforce.
2001, when double didget raises swept our profession, pales in comparison to the robust financial climate the airline industry finds themselves in after a very painful consolidation trend. What happened to the good ol' days when an impasses was called, followed by a 30 day cooling off period, and finally self help? There has been no other time in my 26 years in this industry that I can honestly say that we would be perfectly justified in calling an impass.WeAAsles said:
WeAAsles
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Birdman said:
The Government and they're big business constituents are never going to let that happen for anyone at your airline. You've grown too big and important for the forces to allow you to control your own destiny anymore.
What I'm saying shouldn't exactly be a secret in any of our minds.
UAL Teamsters voted 95% no and started talking strike and it didn't even register a small blip to the stock that day.
This is the harsh reality spoken by a genius.
http://youtu.be/hYIC0eZYEtI
It's not 25% over 5 years. The pay raises being discussed are 8% first year, then 2-3% for years 2 thru 5. For a grand total of 16% to 20% over the life of the contract. Yes the co. wants 5 years but this is from DOS plus 5 years. We have not had any raises since 2012, this Aug. 16th will be 4 years, so it's more like 16%-20% spread out for 9-10 years. The 12% mentioned is offered as a bonus (signing bonus) in place of retro pay for the 4 years that have gone by the waste side and is not a bump in wages of 12%. Yes you are correct, we have not taken any pay cuts since 2001. The modest increases you suggest is also correct which has been 3% each year and 1% in final year 2012. Very modest, yes. But still not keeping up with inflation average. The last year of raise you asked for is 1% in 2012. And yes medical premiums as well as out of pocket have increased and have in fact decreased our pricing power to date. Don't get me wrong the co's offer is way better than any of us were expecting them to start with with the mediators involved now. The problem is, it's still falling short of the memberships numbers especially when you add in all the co's demands in other pay related work rules. You see it's not all about the pay being offered, this is how most aircraft mechanics in the industry look at it, when it all should be looked at as a whole. Sometimes language concessions are larger than the raises being offered (as well as QOL issues) you need to look at everything as a whole and put an account of cost to all of it not just the pay being offered. The co. is only hoping the members will see the dollar signs and sign off on it, but this will not be the case here. The co. is spending their profits elsewhere big time in all new headquarters, hangars thru out the system, training buildings, maint. buildings and more, but they have been planning for this for several years and are more than prepared to handle it...WeAAsles said:
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