WN Mechanics seek mediation

[WeAAsles]

It's not 25% over 5 years. The pay raises being discussed are 8% first year, then 2-3% for years 2 thru 5. For a grand total of 16% to 20% over the life of the contract. Yes the co. wants 5 years but this is from DOS plus 5 years.  We have not had any raises since 2012, this Aug. 16th will be 4 years, so it's more like 16%-20% spread out for 9-10 years.  The 12% mentioned is offered as a bonus (signing bonus) in place of retro pay for the 4 years that have gone by the waste side and is not a bump in wages of 12%. Yes you are correct, we have not taken any pay cuts since 2001. The modest increases you suggest is also correct which has been 3% each year and 1% in final year 2012. Very modest, yes. But still not keeping up with inflation average. The last year of raise you asked for is 1% in 2012.  And yes medical premiums as well as out of pocket have increased and have in fact decreased our pricing power to date.  Don't get me wrong the co's offer is way better than any of us were expecting them to start with with the mediators involved now. The problem is, it's still falling short of the memberships numbers especially when you add in all the co's demands in other pay related work rules.  You see it's not all about the pay being offered, this is how most aircraft mechanics in the industry look at it, when it all should be looked at as a whole. Sometimes language concessions are larger than the raises being offered (as well as QOL issues) you need to look at everything as a whole and put an account of cost to all of it not just the pay being offered. The co. is only hoping the members will see the dollar signs and sign off on it, but this will not be the case here. The co. is spending their profits elsewhere big time in all new headquarters, hangars thru out the system, training buildings, maint. buildings and more, but they have been planning for this for several years and are more than prepared to handle it...

SWAMT thanks for not trying to shoo me away just because I'm not a mechanic like our AA peeps always try to do. I think some of them are way too emotional and want to isolate themselves and close off any idea of listening to perspectives and maybe learning something. I'm glad you're not like that.

I'm curious. Do you know what the all in top rate for your Delta counterpart is right now? Hate to compare the non Union outfit but I assume they're at the top right now? Do they have more or less jobs than you in comparison to size and of course other factors?

Why I'm asking is because I'm sure for the last decade you had to be making more than them only until recently? How does the company's financial offer to you compare to them?

It seems to me as if either you need a solution to get them to back off of the items they're asking for or for deals at AA and UAL to come through so SWA management knows where they stand in comparison with labor costs which could put them at a competitive disadvantage?

Do you think the 3 Unionized airlines are being trepidatious with each other when it comes to the Maintenance group not knowing where each one may fall?

I don't think we share the same issue in Fleet since Delta, SWA and now UAL are done and 2 now locked in under contract.

 

[737MX]

Be careful what you wish for.  AMFA led our NW guys down the same path and you see where we are at now.  Even worse they had the NMB decertify them after the strike so they didn't have to represent us anymore.  From my experience AMFA never represented the best interest of the majority.  They always represented the best interest of the Union radicals that were the ones running AMFA.  I hope the WN guys don't allow AMFA to repeat history.  Good Luck!

 

[swamt]

weAAsles,
If I am not mistaken the order of top pay down is as follows;  Fed-Ex is around 53.00 p/h, UPS is at 51.30 currently but are also currently in contract nego's, some sources have told me they looking at around 60-61.00 p/h for the ask, Delta comes in next at somewhere around 46-48.00 p/h, then SWA at around 43-45.00 p/h, then I am not sure of the rankings but UAL, AA ALK, and US all fall in after that.  I need more info from the last nego's update before commenting any further about it as the mediators are still restricting full updated info to be released publicly. So as for now, no comment...

 

[WeAAsles]

weAAsles,
If I am not mistaken the order of top pay down is as follows;  Fed-Ex is around 53.00 p/h, UPS is at 51.30 currently but are also currently in contract nego's, some sources have told me they looking at around 60-61.00 p/h for the ask, Delta comes in next at somewhere around 46-48.00 p/h, then SWA at around 43-45.00 p/h, then I am not sure of the rankings but UAL, AA ALK, and US all fall in after that.  I need more info from the last nego's update before commenting any further about it as the mediators are still restricting full updated info to be released publicly. So as for now, no comment...

Nothing personal but I know you guys would love to acquire FedEx or UPS type wages but our airlines do not consider package delivery companies to be competitors in the industry. Of course you all perform the same functions it's just not where management is going to focus their particular attention.

Of course in the future if all of our airlines earn sustained revenue or profits above those companies and have lower debt on their books it certainly should give you all an argument that you should earn more.

I believe UPS Drivers make more than me and to me their job would equate to the same principle. I don't deliver or pick up packages. (I'm not going to compare to the people who load the planes either because I believe they are paid dirt)

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Be careful what you wish for.  AMFA led our NW guys down the same path and you see where we are at now.  Even worse they had the NMB decertify them after the strike so they didn't have to represent us anymore.  From my experience AMFA never represented the best interest of the majority.  They always represented the best interest of the Union radicals that were the ones running AMFA.  I hope the WN guys don't allow AMFA to repeat history.  Good Luck!

Scab.

 

[swamt]

Nothing personal but I know you guys would love to acquire FedEx or UPS type wages but our airlines do not consider package delivery companies to be competitors in the industry. Of course you all perform the same functions it's just not where management is going to focus their particular attention.

Of course in the future if all of our airlines earn sustained revenue or profits above those companies and have lower debt on their books it certainly should give you all an argument that you should earn more.

I believe UPS Drivers make more than me and to me their job would equate to the same principle. I don't deliver or pick up packages. (I'm not going to compare to the people who load the planes either because I believe they are paid dirt)

Not taking anything personal, you are correct, most co's do not like to compare the package hauler airlines with them.  But it was recently changed during arbitration with our dispatchers. The dispatchers union was very successful at showing the same lobs being performed between the two. AMFA has already had discussions in caucus with the mediators about comparing with FedEx and UPS, and AMFA will have no problem showing the we as passenger airline mechanics carry a heck of a lot more responsibility due to all the human lives on board instead of just packages that can easily be replaced. Huge difference there alone.  We should be well above FedEx and UPS just for that reason alone.  

 

[WeAAsles]

Not taking anything personal, you are correct, most co's do not like to compare the package hauler airlines with them.  But it was recently changed during arbitration with our dispatchers. The dispatchers union was very successful at showing the same lobs being performed between the two. AMFA has already had discussions in caucus with the mediators about comparing with FedEx and UPS, and AMFA will have no problem showing the we as passenger airline mechanics carry a heck of a lot more responsibility due to all the human lives on board instead of just packages that can easily be replaced. Huge difference there alone.  We should be well above FedEx and UPS just for that reason alone.

I agree 100% if the airlines compensated on a measure of responsibility. I hope your group is successful in arguing the case. Actually I should say that I hope all Passenger Airline Mechanics are successful in arguing that case.

 

[Worldport]

I agree 100% if the airlines compensated on a measure of responsibility. I hope your group is successful in arguing the case. Actually I should say that I hope all Passenger Airline Mechanics are successful in arguing that case.

Weez do not cargo planes fly over populated areas and stadiums  and such? Should a AMT working on a E-190 get paid less than one working on a 777. Less people less responsibility 

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez do not cargo planes fly over populated areas and stadiums  and such? Should a AMT working on a E-190 get paid less than one working on a 777. Less people less responsibility

Absolutely not Worldport. But no matter what you still have to consider the revenue or profit that the company you work for generates.

Taking say Walmart and Kmart as an example. Walmart could afford to pay there associates a lot more than they do and a lot more than Kmart who generates far less revenue and profits.

In another thread a moron has been talking about Fronteir Airlines. Can Fronteir afford to pay the same as what swamt makes at SWA? No.

Between FEDEX, UPS, and the USPS they pretty much are their only each other's competitors. And even the business models of what they carry are unique. UPS big boxes and stuff, FedEx letters and smaller packages, and USPS mail and everything else. They overlap each other's business of course but they each have their own niche.

I'm rambling a little here but I think you catch my drift.

 

[WeAAsles]

swamt will probably come back with "but they're generating record profits" Of course they are and they should go after as much of that as they can get. But the company is also going to come back with they have others who want to stake a claim on those profits as well. They're not going to take all the profits they make and just hand that to their employees.

But they should give out a reasonable slice of that pie. I think SWA management probably feels that they already have been doing that for the last decade in comparison to their peers who went through a lot of misery, bankruptcies and cost cuts that put them more in line to being able to compete against the SWA model.

That's what swamt and others are fighting against over there.

 

[Worldport]

swamt will probably come back with "but they're generating record profits" Of course they are and they should go after as much of that as they can get. But the company is also going to come back with they have others who want to stake a claim on those profits as well. They're not going to take all the profits they make and just hand that to their employees.

But they should give out a reasonable slice of that pie. I think SWA management probably feels that they already have been doing that for the last decade in comparison to their peers who went through a lot of misery, bankruptcies and cost cuts that put them more in line to being able to compete against the SWA model.

That's what swamt and others are fighting against over there.

Swam is really lucky he's been with SW all these years he didn't have to go through what everyone else did. imagine where we would be without all the cuts  and feeling you are going to lose your job every few years

 

[swamt]

We'll see where we are after these next nego's set for May. But I predict this is where the the co. and nego team will butt heads over the language rules they want. Let's see how the mediators are prepared to get involved as both sides might be stuck at their wants. Hopefully these two mediators are successful as they were last time in getting both sides to either come to an agreement (this will take time, but looking for movement) or at least have something to vote on some time this year. I know I have said I don't expect to see anything this year, but, with the latest info, and the up coming National Officers all on the chopping block this Oct. actually might speed things up a little.  Just thinking out loud here, but it would do the officers some good if they were to come out with a great offer that overwhelmingly passes by the membership by, say, Aug contract date just before the elections are done, otherwise I see a mass exit of all the officers at the top including the Director's position this time around.  I honestly think the membership will start to get very restless if this goes past the 4th year mark and SWA doesn't want that at this time in growth mode.  I know the culture has been dwindling away since we all know when, but I would hate to see it get any worse than it already is. This could very well be a time to start turning back towards working on the culture at SWA that has worked so very well over the last 40 years.  I will post an update when we get it.

 

[swamt]

I agree 100% if the airlines compensated on a measure of responsibility. I hope your group is successful in arguing the case. Actually I should say that I hope all Passenger Airline Mechanics are successful in arguing that case.

I think our group will get there. The current discussion of pay is the co. first that we have even heard of since going into mediation. I will add that it was better than what I was expecting to hear come out of the co. They know it's going to take a lot to get even part of the language demands they are asking for.  The pay they are discussing would put us, I think, right  in between of FedEx and UPS currently, and as we all know UPS is still in their mediated contract talks as well. The co. has said before that the money is not the problem (when it actually is) that it's the language rules that the co. wants.  They know good and well that money is directly tied to any kind of language changes, the question is what does it take to get that language?  Not sure if there is a level on a scale where that is as the members are tired and tired of giving, and yes we have been giving when the time has been needed, and the co. wants to continue to go down that avenue when making record profits and growth, which is very hard for the membership to do. I kow we have experienced what other airlines have gone thru since 9-11, but that is why SWA is ran so lean and mean so they don't have to hire and fire as the roller coaster goes up and down in the airline industry.  Again wishing my fellow mechanics at AA good luck, also the UPS'ers during their contract talks, and of coarse the UAL mechanics as well. Her's to hoping we can all get a great boost in our contracts for all these great times we are experiencing right now in good times, Cheers...

 

[WeAAsles]

We'll see where we are after these next nego's set for May. But I predict this is where the the co. and nego team will butt heads over the language rules they want. Let's see how the mediators are prepared to get involved as both sides might be stuck at their wants. Hopefully these two mediators are successful as they were last time in getting both sides to either come to an agreement (this will take time, but looking for movement) or at least have something to vote on some time this year. I know I have said I don't expect to see anything this year, but, with the latest info, and the up coming National Officers all on the chopping block this Oct. actually might speed things up a little.  Just thinking out loud here, but it would do the officers some good if they were to come out with a great offer that overwhelmingly passes by the membership by, say, Aug contract date just before the elections are done, otherwise I see a mass exit of all the officers at the top including the Director's position this time around.  I honestly think the membership will start to get very restless if this goes past the 4th year mark and SWA doesn't want that at this time in growth mode.  I know the culture has been dwindling away since we all know when, but I would hate to see it get any worse than it already is. This could very well be a time to start turning back towards working on the culture at SWA that has worked so very well over the last 40 years.  I will post an update when we get it.

You do know I hope that your negotiators can't force the company to give you a great deal. The company holds the bank account numbers and the signature to get those funds out.

And if you "vote the bums out" all you do is set yourself back because now they have to get up to speed with where the bums left off.

Sad state of affairs huh.

 

[Birdman]

In a lot of discussions with fellow mechanics I can say most agree it's no time to fund raises with concessions including a lot of talk about article in the Grapevine titled "Bargaining with the "New" Southwest Airlines".
http://www.amfanational.org/grapevine/42016grapevinemain.htm